AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread

[Spursalot]

Did you see our home games?

Yes, and in them we tended to miss clear cut chances that we created.

 

[Rossi22]

I must have missed those games. Bar the teams who came out and attacked us(which wasn't many), we'd spend the entire game shooting from ridiculous distances and angles in the hope that one(usually from Bale) would fly in.

 

[Kingdawson]

Yes, and in them we tended to miss clear cut chances that we created.

We hardly created any chances let alone clear cut chances.

 

[Spursalot]

We hardly created any chances let alone clear cut chances.

I would disagree. There were possibly four-five games we failed to make inroads, in the rest of them we created decent chances and clear cuts too.


I feel that this isn't going to get anywhere as you two see things so differently, so i'll leave it there.

 

[braineclipse]

You don't have wingers, they sit far higher up the pitch and don't do as much defensive work. It'd be more of a 4-2-1-3 offensively, but the 1 would go backwards to help defend in a three when we didn't have the ball, and formations are based on your defending positioning, so 4-3-3.

You don't necessarily have wingers in a 4-2-3-1 either.

Or it could be a 4-1-2-3.

It's a 4-5-1 when defending, but the wingers cut inside when going forward and the FBs overlap to create 2 on 1 or 3 on 2.

I agree we will defend in a 4-5-1 looking formation most of the time, although Bale for example will probably be given freedom to stay a bit further forward when we defend to be ready to attack on the break so it will be probably be a bit lopsided.

I think it's very unlikely that we'll frequently let 3 forward players get away with not doing much defensive work. Very few teams do and it doesn't sound like AVB to me.

 

[braineclipse]

I'm not advocating playing Sig in a deep central role, more likely imo that Dembele/Sandro/Paulinho will be the two deep positions and Sig/Holtby will be just in front of those two. We'll likely change formations too, AVB has shown a tendancy to occasionally try and alter the course of the game through a shift in formation.

I just think 4-3-3 is planned to be our primary formation and we'll switch from it if the occasion dictates.


Even if Hudd, Livermore and Parker leave that still leaves us with six 'CM's' Which is more than enough to play a 4-3-3 variation. I don't think Carroll will go on loan, he's shown an aptitude to come on as a substitute and change games.


The only reason i think we'd be forced to shift to a long ball type game is when the central three just aren't putting the effort in and finding space.

We struggled to play though pressure with Dembele and Sandro deep last season at times. From what he's shown so far Paulinho hasn't proven himself to be the kind of playmaker that would rectify that situation.

 

[scaramanga]

I would disagree. There were possibly four-five games we failed to make inroads, in the rest of them we created decent chances and clear cuts too.


I feel that this isn't going to get anywhere as you two see things so differently, so i'll leave it there.

I'll take the halfway point on this one. I think in most of the games where we struggled we had a few chances early on which we missed. This meant we couldn't drag teams out and we then failed to break them down - obviously opponents will gain confidence the longer they hold us out for too.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

We struggled to play though pressure with Dembele and Sandro deep last season at times. From what he's shown so far Paulinho hasn't proven himself to be the kind of playmaker that would rectify that situation.

AVB is a pragmatic coach, and Mourinho is his idol. I think it's safe to say that flair won't be on AVB's mind. Organisational, functional and hard working is what he wants us to be. A tight unit that can get a goal and then defend solidly to see the game out and hit teams on the counter to put the game to bed. It does make me smile when people credit Mourinho with this tactic though. Liverpool won most of their titles playing this way.

 

[africanspurs]

Trouble is you can't always win the ball high up the pitch if the oppositon is just sitting deep and letting you have the ball. We often seemed to struggle last season to break those sorts of teams down, and it seems like we'd struggle even more if we repaced one of our more attacking / creative players with Paulinho.

Anyway, I think everyone is jumping to conclusions when they suggest that signing Paulinho is strong evidence of an imminent shift to 4-3-3. Last season we had Sandro and Dembele as our first choice CMs, and Huddlestone / Livermore / Parker / Carroll as the immediate backups. Seems perfectly feasible to me that AVB just wanted another quality player for those two CM spots, to minimise the time that Hudd, Parker etc will have to be relied upon.

very possible too. but i think that what will happen is that the 17 million pound investment will get a starting birth. and will be playing his way to his worth

Levy has not once bought a 15 million plus bench player. they may have ended up on the bench after a long trial of disasters but they always start off as starters

paulinho, dembele and the best defensive mid we have will be our starters

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm never sure what people mean anymore when they talk about flair. Is it the players or the performance? I'd be interested to know who plays with consistent 'flair' in the modern British game anymore? There has to be a balance. To suggest that 'flair' isn't on AVB's mind is strange. He wants to win of course, but he has a keen sense of how to win and entertain at the same time. There were times last season when we played some brilliant football. There were a few occasions where it went decidedly tits up and we were awful. Overall he hit a nice balance and was let down by poor finishing and a lack of luck (Sigurdsson hit the woodwork 5 times by himself I believe?)...

The Liverpool comparison I saw made by someone above was a good one, other than the assertion that they also might have lacked 'flair'...they routinely spanked a bunch of sides by 3 or 4 clear goals for a few seasons; that they were also a tight functional cohesive unit shouldn't get in the way of recognizing that IMO.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

AVB is a pragmatic coach, and Mourinho is his idol. I think it's safe to say that flair won't be on AVB's mind. Organisational, functional and hard working is what he wants us to be. A tight unit that can get a goal and then defend solidly to see the game out and hit teams on the counter to put the game to bed. It does make me smile when people credit Mourinho with this tactic though. Liverpool won most of their titles playing this way.

His ideal style of football is a lot more fluid than Mourinho's. He didn't show it much last season because of the players he had but I think this year he will.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

His ideal style of football is a lot more fluid than Mourinho's. He didn't show it much last season because of the players he had but I think this year he will.

Not from the interviews I have heard from him, or the way he has set us and Chelsea up. I hear that Porto were decentish to watch, but that it was in the same way we are good to watch when Bale is performing his magic. It's not that the team plays attractive football, it's that certain individuals can perform attractive pieces of individual brilliance.

There is nothing wrong with Mourinho's or AVB's style, it's simply more tactical and less visually thrilling to watch than Fergie's Utd or Wenger's Arsenal. But last year Utd weren't the same cavalier team they've been in recent years, but I put that down to less able players than a change to the system or mantra. Chelsea and City had great success playing without much flair, and so did Liverpool under Rafa.

If AVB brings that success to Spurs then I don't think you'll find many fans complaining about the lack of Spurs way. But if we don't, then I'd imagine fans will only put up with another season or so of what we witnessed for large parts of last season. Unfortunately for AVB the bar has been raised and finishing top four is no longer enough for many of our fans, if that top four finish doesn't come hand in hand with entertaining football. Last season at the Lane was often a snoozefest.....

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Not from the interviews I have heard from him, or the way he has set us and Chelsea up. I hear that Porto were decentish to watch, but that it was in the same way we are good to watch when Bale is performing his magic. It's not that the team plays attractive football, it's that certain individuals can perform attractive pieces of individual brilliance.

There is nothing wrong with Mourinho's or AVB's style, it's simply more tactical and less visually thrilling to watch than Fergie's Utd or Wenger's Arsenal. But last year Utd weren't the same cavalier team they've been in recent years, but I put that down to less able players than a change to the system or mantra. Chelsea and City had great success playing without much flair, and so did Liverpool under Rafa.

If AVB brings that success to Spurs then I don't think you'll find many fans complaining about the lack of Spurs way. But if we don't, then I'd imagine fans will only put up with another season or so of what we witnessed for large parts of last season. Unfortunately for AVB the bar has been raised and finishing top four is no longer enough for many of our fans, if that top four finish doesn't come hand in hand with entertaining football. Last season at the Lane was often a snoozefest.....

I just don't agree that AVB's style should be talked of in the same lines as Mourinho's. They have different ideals. That's not to say that I thought we played great football last year - we didn't and I don't think we were anywhere near where AVB actually wants to take us in terms of style. But I think he is a lot different to Mourinho in terms of preference. What he was trying to do at Chelsea was a lot different from what Mourinho did with them.

Point me to the interviews where you have seen him say he considers Mourinho is his idol and goes along with his style of football and I will concede to you. But I'll point you to the AVB book 'Special Too' which disagrees with that idea. They may both set up teams in a 4-3-3, but they execute that formation very differently.

 

[indianspur]

with a potential midfield 3 of Sandro, Dembele and Paulinho, i dont see much free flowing pass and move football. We will be solid, difficult to break down, but always have the potential to score goals through impact players like Paulinho, Bale, and Villa if he signs

 

[billyiddo]

Not from the interviews I have heard from him, or the way he has set us and Chelsea up. I hear that Porto were decentish to watch, but that it was in the same way we are good to watch when Bale is performing his magic. It's not that the team plays attractive football, it's that certain individuals can perform attractive pieces of individual brilliance.

There is nothing wrong with Mourinho's or AVB's style, it's simply more tactical and less visually thrilling to watch than Fergie's Utd or Wenger's Arsenal. But last year Utd weren't the same cavalier team they've been in recent years, but I put that down to less able players than a change to the system or mantra. Chelsea and City had great success playing without much flair, and so did Liverpool under Rafa.

If AVB brings that success to Spurs then I don't think you'll find many fans complaining about the lack of Spurs way. But if we don't, then I'd imagine fans will only put up with another season or so of what we witnessed for large parts of last season. Unfortunately for AVB the bar has been raised and finishing top four is no longer enough for many of our fans, if that top four finish doesn't come hand in hand with entertaining football. Last season at the Lane was often a snoozefest.....

Im not so sure about that, only really watched their Europa League games but when you consider the team they had - it was balanced throughout, skill and flair in attacking positions and creativity from deep as well as strength and power, so i don't think it's accurate to say they relied on individual brilliance from players for the style/attractiveness of their play it just so happened they had some BIG players who shined - take G.Bale and his words about how AvB and himself have worked on his game/the teams set up to get the best out of him - and im sure ive read similar things from Falcao/Hulk - that would suggest that the 'individual brilliance' is factored in to his game plan and tactics.

I think it'd be just as easy to say that the strength/power and organisation came from the individuals deployed in the team as it is to say that is where the style came from.

 

[braineclipse]

I remember quite clearly Porto fans saying that AVB had the club playing more attractive football than Mourinho did.

A lot can be said about AVB's time at Chelsea, but I think it's quite clear that he tried to play a more attacking and less cynical style of football than Mourinho did.

 

[thfcsteff]

AVB is an evolving beast of a manager/coach. He is a different man to that who was in charge at Porto and Chelsea, indeed, he is vastly different from his Chelsea days as he learns fast and is very very smart. I believe his ideal style is somewhat similar to Brazil yesterday...I find it remarkable that anyone still clings to the cliches which one surrounded him.

 

[Kingdawson]

AVB is an evolving beast of a manager/coach. He is a different man to that who was in charge at Porto and Chelsea, indeed, he is vastly different from his Chelsea days as he learns fast and is very very smart. I believe his ideal style is somewhat similar to Brazil yesterday...I find it remarkable that anyone still clings to the cliches which one surrounded him.

I would sum up the football we played last season as "effective".

This argument is null and void anyway because of the personnel he's likely to have at his disposal next season. People talk about how attractive the football Porto produced was but we're probably going to go into the new season without a creative midfielder playing centrally so it seems he will be going the Mourinho route (which i think is a great idea tbh and something i wanted from the very beginning)

-----------------------Sandro (Makelele)-----------------------

----------Dembele (Essien)-------Paulinho/Sig(Lampard)----

 

[africanspurs]

I just don't agree that AVB's style should be talked of in the same lines as Mourinho's. They have different ideals. That's not to say that I thought we played great football last year - we didn't and I don't think we were anywhere near where AVB actually wants to take us in terms of style. But I think he is a lot different to Mourinho in terms of preference. What he was trying to do at Chelsea was a lot different from what Mourinho did with them.

Point me to the interviews where you have seen him say he considers Mourinho is his idol and goes along with his style of football and I will concede to you. But I'll point you to the AVB book 'Special Too' which disagrees with that idea. They may both set up teams in a 4-3-3, but they execute that formation very differently.

how do you know they have different ideals? I'm just curious cause i always thought that AVB learned alot from mourinho

plus it seemed like from what people said....that avb's porto was set up like mourinho's teams

 

[africanspurs]

AVB is an evolving beast of a manager/coach. He is a different man to that who was in charge at Porto and Chelsea, indeed, he is vastly different from his Chelsea days as he learns fast and is very very smart. I believe his ideal style is somewhat similar to Brazil yesterday...I find it remarkable that anyone still clings to the cliches which one surrounded him.

dont follow. Plus how do you know what his ideals are?

based on how he set up with us and chelsea and porto i fail to see how his actions shows his he has similar ideals to brazil. Unless of course you me brazil that have a solid powerful robust core and finesse surrounding it...which is incorporated into what KD said anyway