AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread

[Hashegotthesackyet?]

Apologies for being a bit of a noob on this front, but I don't see an obvious way of spotting what formation a team is playing, especially when on TV.
I'm watching Italy V Spain now, can anyone give any tips on what to look for, as when I try and figure it out, it's so fluid and people are moving all over the gaff!

 

[elltrev]

Apologies for being a bit of a noob on this front, but I don't see an obvious way of spotting what formation a team is playing, especially when on TV.
I'm watching Italy V Spain now, can anyone give any tips on what to look for, as when I try and figure it out, it's so fluid and people are moving all over the gaff!

Best to try and watch each team when they're defending - players will stick to their positions much more rigidly.

 

[Mumorn]

Looks to me like Italy are playing 3 at the back and relying on Maggio and Giaccherini to help out down either flank defensively and de Rossi/Pirlo just in front of the midfield to protect and distribute.

 

[braineclipse]

Looks to me like Italy are playing 3 at the back and relying on Maggio and Giaccherini to help out down either flank defensively and de Rossi/Pirlo just in front of the midfield to protect and distribute.

Will be interesting to see if more clubs try a back 3 against Spain (or Barcelona) in the future after Italy's very impressive performance against them.

Worth noting though that this Italy side had 7 (I think) Juventus players in it, including the entire back 3, all of them used to playing a back 3 alongside each other. Not sure it would work as well for a team less drilled in that formation.

 

[braineclipse]

Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but I can't quite see a thread that is right for this.

If we sign Paulinho and no other central midfielders this summer a lot of people are concerned about our lack of creativity in the centre. Although I would be very happy about us signing Paulinho I think this is a valid concern.

Could this mean that the club is rating Holtby and Carroll very highly?

Although not as immediately exciting as a big profile central playmaker signing, those two players given the chance to grow into a role like would be very interesting to follow.

There have been (ITK?) reports about clubs wanting to take Carroll on loan. I think he did enough last season to show that he could do a job for a PL side that wants to play football so it seems reasonable. If the club chooses to keep him around this summer could that be because they think he can have a real positive impact on the team when called upon?

 

[africanspurs]

yeah i was thinking the same.

i see a starting trio of dembele, paulinho, and sandro...and that says to me that we are looking to really bulldoze teams in the midfield.

it also shows a jose like philosophy

if we dont sign any other midfielders then i think the thought process is that paulinho is going to be like lampard(goal scoring wise)....either that or dembele is(which i actually think he can be)

the play making abilities though would be a big concern

 

[Kingdawson]

i remember i was making this point before AVB even got here and it seems AVB has the same opinion. Modric type cm's are vastly overrated in this league and are not essential (in this league). When we signed Sig i was sure it would be a midfield trio of him, Sandro and Dembele but AVB did say he didn't want to change formations straight away so it didn't happen.

Bulldozing teams is the way forward imo...within reason anyway.


Oh and the Bernard and mkhitaryan links is indications that our creative play will be coming from the left or right side and cutting in. In fact i'm pretty sure they would have been given a free role to roam around being that our centre is so solid.

 

[africanspurs]

i remember i was making this point before AVB even got here and it seems AVB has the same opinion. Modric type cm's are vastly overrated in this league and are not essential (in this league). When we signed Sig i was sure it would be a midfield trio of him, Sandro and Dembele but AVB did say he didn't want to change formations straight away so it didn't happen.

Bulldozing teams is the way forward imo...within reason anyway.


Oh and the Bernard and mkhitaryan links is indications that our creative play will be coming from the left or right side and cutting in. In fact i'm pretty sure they would have been given a free role to roam around being that our centre is so solid.

this

 

[NWND]

Yeah you over power teams in midfield winning the ball high up the pitch and then you have 3 lethal attacking players to hurt teams imediately the ball breaks to them. We have one in Bale at the moment, potentially one in Townsend, Lennon just doesnt have enough end product but is a gradter and someone vital to have in the squad.I think AVB wants 2 more. Villa would be one then who else? Soldado? Yilmaz? Negredo? Bernard? Damiao?

 

[elltrev]

Yeah you over power teams in midfield winning the ball high up the pitch and then you have 3 lethal attacking players to hurt teams imediately the ball breaks to them. We have one in Bale at the moment, potentially one in Townsend, Lennon just doesnt have enough end product but is a gradter and someone vital to have in the squad.I think AVB wants 2 more. Villa would be one then who else? Soldado? Yilmaz? Negredo? Bernard? Damiao?

Trouble is you can't always win the ball high up the pitch if the oppositon is just sitting deep and letting you have the ball. We often seemed to struggle last season to break those sorts of teams down, and it seems like we'd struggle even more if we repaced one of our more attacking / creative players with Paulinho.

Anyway, I think everyone is jumping to conclusions when they suggest that signing Paulinho is strong evidence of an imminent shift to 4-3-3. Last season we had Sandro and Dembele as our first choice CMs, and Huddlestone / Livermore / Parker / Carroll as the immediate backups. Seems perfectly feasible to me that AVB just wanted another quality player for those two CM spots, to minimise the time that Hudd, Parker etc will have to be relied upon.

 

[Hootnow]

i remember i was making this point before AVB even got here and it seems AVB has the same opinion. Modric type cm's are vastly overrated in this league and are not essential (in this league). When we signed Sig i was sure it would be a midfield trio of him, Sandro and Dembele but AVB did say he didn't want to change formations straight away so it didn't happen.

Bulldozing teams is the way forward imo...within reason anyway.


Oh and the Bernard and mkhitaryan links is indications that our creative play will be coming from the left or right side and cutting in. In fact i'm pretty sure they would have been given a free role to roam around being that our centre is so solid.

I agree, same with Willian as well before we were gazumped. I think AVB thinks we can get all the creativity we need from the front 3 (if we're moving to a 4-3-3) or from the 2 wide players if we're sticking in a 4-2-3-1. Similar to Mata, Silva etc.

And maybe stick Carroll/ Hudd in the centre if we're desperate.

Don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that, as long as we sort out our general attacking movement.

 

[Spursalot]

Trouble is you can't always win the ball high up the pitch if the oppositon is just sitting deep and letting you have the ball. We often seemed to struggle last season to break those sorts of teams down, and it seems like we'd struggle even more if we repaced one of our more attacking / creative players with Paulinho.

Anyway, I think everyone is jumping to conclusions when they suggest that signing Paulinho is strong evidence of an imminent shift to 4-3-3. Last season we had Sandro and Dembele as our first choice CMs, and Huddlestone / Livermore / Parker / Carroll as the immediate backups. Seems perfectly feasible to me that AVB just wanted another quality player for those two CM spots, to minimise the time that Hudd, Parker etc will have to be relied upon.

I think the strong evidence of the imminent shift to 4-3-3 was when we started to play 4-3-3 at the end of last season.


Do you think Holtby, Sandro, Paulinho, Dembele, Carroll, Huddlestone, Livermore, Siggurdsson (?) make sense if we're going to play a two man midfield? That's eight players who could play in a CM position, and at least six where that is their best position. Sig and Holtby you could probably argue, and it's assuming you are selling Parker.


Personally i don't think we had as trouble breaking teams down as people seem to state, we broke teams down all the time, just the Strikers on the end of the chances we did create were simply not clinical enough.

 

[braineclipse]

Trouble is you can't always win the ball high up the pitch if the oppositon is just sitting deep and letting you have the ball. We often seemed to struggle last season to break those sorts of teams down, and it seems like we'd struggle even more if we repaced one of our more attacking / creative players with Paulinho.

Anyway, I think everyone is jumping to conclusions when they suggest that signing Paulinho is strong evidence of an imminent shift to 4-3-3. Last season we had Sandro and Dembele as our first choice CMs, and Huddlestone / Livermore / Parker / Carroll as the immediate backups. Seems perfectly feasible to me that AVB just wanted another quality player for those two CM spots, to minimise the time that Hudd, Parker etc will have to be relied upon.

I very much agree with the first paragraph. This is why I'm thinking that perhaps it will be Holtby or Carroll alongside two of Paulinho, Sandro and Dembele in games we expect to dominate.

I also think we might struggle (like we did last season) against teams that put a lot of pressure on us high up the pitch and we might be forced to play long balls. Again, Holtby or Carroll might help that a bit.

Either that or we need to bring in a tall, strong striker that can feed off crosses and that we can play it long to. Big strong strikers that are also at least reasonably quick, good with their feet and score plenty of goals are rare though.

I agree with Spursalot that there are signs we are moving towards a 4-3-3 formation.

Edit: At least as one option used quite often, not saying that we will play exclusively a 4-3-3 formation.

 

[braineclipse]

I think the strong evidence of the imminent shift to 4-3-3 was when we started to play 4-3-3 at the end of last season.


Do you think Holtby, Sandro, Paulinho, Dembele, Carroll, Huddlestone, Livermore, Siggurdsson (?) make sense if we're going to play a two man midfield? That's eight players who could play in a CM position, and at least six where that is their best position. Sig and Holtby you could probably argue, and it's assuming you are selling Parker.


Personally i don't think we had as trouble breaking teams down as people seem to state, we broke teams down all the time, just the Strikers on the end of the chances we did create were simply not clinical enough.

Just to play devil's advocate: Hudd, Livermore and Parker might all be on their way out. Sig has never played in a deep central role in 4-2-3-1 for us (or Swansea).

Holtby and Dembele can both play in a more advanced role in 4-2-3-1, Carroll is still young and there's still a chance he leaves on loan.

Like you I think we'll see 4-3-3 more frequently next season, but I'm not sure there will be an "imminent shift" - if by shift you mean something permanent. I think we might still see us "flipping the triangle" or whatever it's called and changing between 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 along with perhaps a more 4-4-2 looking formation in some games.

 

[Spursalot]

Just to play devil's advocate: Hudd, Livermore and Parker might all be on their way out. Sig has never played in a deep central role in 4-2-3-1 for us (or Swansea).

Holtby and Dembele can both play in a more advanced role in 4-2-3-1, Carroll is still young and there's still a chance he leaves on loan.

Like you I think we'll see 4-3-3 more frequently next season, but I'm not sure there will be an "imminent shift" - if by shift you mean something permanent. I think we might still see us "flipping the triangle" or whatever it's called and changing between 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 along with perhaps a more 4-4-2 looking formation in some games.

I'm not advocating playing Sig in a deep central role, more likely imo that Dembele/Sandro/Paulinho will be the two deep positions and Sig/Holtby will be just in front of those two. We'll likely change formations too, AVB has shown a tendancy to occasionally try and alter the course of the game through a shift in formation.

I just think 4-3-3 is planned to be our primary formation and we'll switch from it if the occasion dictates.


Even if Hudd, Livermore and Parker leave that still leaves us with six 'CM's' Which is more than enough to play a 4-3-3 variation. I don't think Carroll will go on loan, he's shown an aptitude to come on as a substitute and change games.


The only reason i think we'd be forced to shift to a long ball type game is when the central three just aren't putting the effort in and finding space.

 

[elltrev]

I think the strong evidence of the imminent shift to 4-3-3 was when we started to play 4-3-3 at the end of last season.


Do you think Holtby, Sandro, Paulinho, Dembele, Carroll, Huddlestone, Livermore, Siggurdsson (?) make sense if we're going to play a two man midfield? That's eight players who could play in a CM position, and at least six where that is their best position. Sig and Holtby you could probably argue, and it's assuming you are selling Parker.

Personally i don't think we had as trouble breaking teams down as people seem to state, we broke teams down all the time, just the Strikers on the end of the chances we did create were simply not clinical enough.

CMs: Dembele, Sandro, Paulinho, Huddlestone / Parker
AMs: Holtby, Siggy
Loan: Livermore, Carroll

Like Braineclipse I think our squad is flexible, and can be seen as suited to both 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3. And I don't think we should rigidly stick to one or the other. Personally I think that Dembele and Sandro in a 4-2-3-1 is defensive overkill in certain games / situations, let alone adding Paulinho into the mix as well (in place of a more attacking player).

 

[elltrev]

I'm not advocating playing Sig in a deep central role, more likely imo that Dembele/Sandro/Paulinho will be the two deep positions and Sig/Holtby will be just in front of those two. We'll likely change formations too, AVB has shown a tendancy to occasionally try and alter the course of the game through a shift in formation.

I just think 4-3-3 is planned to be our primary formation and we'll switch from it if the occasion dictates.


Even if Hudd, Livermore and Parker leave that still leaves us with six 'CM's' Which is more than enough to play a 4-3-3 variation. I don't think Carroll will go on loan, he's shown an aptitude to come on as a substitute and change games.


The only reason i think we'd be forced to shift to a long ball type game is when the central three just aren't putting the effort in and finding space.

Is that really significantly different from 4-2-3-1 then?

 

[Spursalot]

CMs: Dembele, Sandro, Paulinho, Huddlestone / Parker
AMs: Holtby, Siggy
Loan: Livermore, Carroll

Like Braineclipse I think our squad is flexible, and can be seen as suited to both 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3. And I don't think we should rigidly stick to one or the other. Personally I think that Dembele and Sandro in a 4-2-3-1 is defensive overkill in certain games / situations, let alone adding Paulinho into the mix as well (in place of a more attacking player).

I don't think we should stick rigidly to one or the other either, however we are going to use one more than the other, and i think it'll be a 4-3-3 more often based on the players we have and are linked with.

Is that really significantly different from 4-2-3-1 then?

You don't have wingers, they sit far higher up the pitch and don't do as much defensive work. It'd be more of a 4-2-1-3 offensively, but the 1 would go backwards to help defend in a three when we didn't have the ball, and formations are based on your defending positioning, so 4-3-3.

 

[Jordinho]

Or it could be a 4-1-2-3.

It's a 4-5-1 when defending, but the wingers cut inside when going forward and the FBs overlap to create 2 on 1 or 3 on 2.

 

[Rossi22]

Personally i don't think we had as trouble breaking teams down as people seem to state, we broke teams down all the time, just the Strikers on the end of the chances we did create were simply not clinical enough.

Did you see our home games?