AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread

[thfcsteff]

Wookie - I've named those 3 as a "catch-all" but I can very much remember that Keane used to play Lennon in in that manner on a regular basis. One of the goals we scored up at Middlesbrough back in 2007 under Jol was done by getting Lennon in behind his full back before returning it to Keane who put it away. Similarly we went to Emirates Marketing Project under Ramos when we won with 10 men and I seem to recall Lennon being played in by (I think) Jenas who squared for Defoe to score. It was a very regular feature and often the main way to get Lennon into a game. It was around long before AVB and certainly before Charlie. Charlie was definitely the most effective at getting Lennon in though.

Because Charlie would play him in early.

 

[thfcsteff]

Lennon's runs like that are nothing new at all. I can't believe anyone is suggesting it's down to a new system. This was typical Lennon. Ironically I was discussed BEFORE the game that Lennon is at his best cutting the ball back from the line.

I was a better performance but ultimately we won the game due to two very typical pieces of Spurs play where players did what they are best at. Lennon and Walker both made runs very typical of what they've always done for us and cut the ball back across goal.

No matter what tactics we employ we will get the best out of our players by playing to their strengths. That was why we won against Reading as both Lennon and Walker got to use their pace to get to positions where they could cut the ball back. If anything we saw the reality of football on Sunday. You can make all sorts of tactical changes but ultimately you need to use your players key attributes to your advantage.

The fact some people are trying to express a tactical influence on a game we won due to players doing what they have been for years and what they are good at, is exactly why I have little time for tactical discussion. It's plain crazy. The straight ball for Lennon to get in behind the defence is one of, if not, the most typical of Spurs moves since he's been at the club.

We've got good players out wide and they are very effective. We should revert to playing more diagonal balls and hopefully when the Hudd is fully fit we'll start to see this. Vertonghen should start doing what Dawson did, though he's got the ability to be much more effective. I think the longer AVB is in charge the more you'll see us reverting to type as it's just common sense that we look to hit the wide players early and play through balls in behind the defence for them to run onto whenever possible.

What's next? I Ade starts laying on knocks downs for the likes of Dempsey, Sig and Defoe, is that can be seen as down to a new system? If the Hudd hits a thunderbolt will that be down to tactical change? If Dembele drifts passed a few defenders and opens up space, is that a new thing, or his trademark?

Curiously, you have isolated a truism yet failed to point out the most obvious one, namely that by keeping the ball on the floor most of the time, we got more productivity out of Defoe not just as a finisher but as a footballer. Our defenders don't look to hoof it/play it long as much, and our side clearly works on retaining possession of the ball as a side not with one or two fantastic individuals.
I know it was 'only Reading' and all that, but that was one of the more convincing away displays we've given in 2012. It was without Luka Modric, a player I personally feel is one of the best midfielders in the world, and VdV.
The mere fact we're not seeing Ade rushed into the starting line-up, or Dempsey deployed to try and perform that role, already shows a significant switch in tactical focus, namely, this side will be trying to keep the ball on the floor a lot more and playing to feet.
I agree, great players left to do what they do will do great things, but only for a certain amount of time. Then they get tired, they get knocks and they need a little more guidance. Like him or not, this bloke seems very capable of providing it.

 

[WookieD]

Wookie - I've named those 3 as a "catch-all" but I can very much remember that Keane used to play Lennon in in that manner on a regular basis. One of the goals we scored up at Middlesbrough back in 2007 under Jol was done by getting Lennon in behind his full back before returning it to Keane who put it away. Similarly we went to Emirates Marketing Project under Ramos when we won with 10 men and I seem to recall Lennon being played in by (I think) Jenas who squared for Defoe to score. It was a very regular feature and often the main way to get Lennon into a game. It was around long before AVB and certainly before Charlie. Charlie was definitely the most effective at getting Lennon in though.

I'm not disputing that Keane ever brought him in behind the FB, I'm saying that it was absolutely not a regular occurance. The only player that regularly used that ball to Lennon was Charlie.

 

[joey55]

Curiously, you have isolated a truism yet failed to point out the most obvious one, namely that by keeping the ball on the floor most of the time, we got more productivity out of Defoe not just as a finisher but as a footballer. Our defenders don't look to hoof it/play it long as much, and our side clearly works on retaining possession of the ball as a side not with one or two fantastic individuals.
I know it was 'only Reading' and all that, but that was one of the more convincing away displays we've given in 2012. It was without Luka Modric, a player I personally feel is one of the best midfielders in the world, and VdV.
The mere fact we're not seeing Ade rushed into the starting line-up, or Dempsey deployed to try and perform that role, already shows a significant switch in tactical focus, namely, this side will be trying to keep the ball on the floor a lot more and playing to feet.
I agree, great players left to do what they do will do great things, but only for a certain amount of time. Then they get tired, they get knocks and they need a little more guidance. Like him or not, this bloke seems very capable of providing it.

But if you look at Defoes key involvements during the game, it totally discredits this.

His first effective moment came from winning a header in the air! From that we won the free kick that led to Sigs header and then Vertonghens shot. It had nothing at all to do with playing the ball on the floor!

The next thing was when he plucked the ball out of the air magnificently and shot just wide. This came from a long ball over the top from Naughton. Totally the opposite of what you are saying!

He then provided a chance for Sig, but this came from a Reading mistake when GK miss-controlled the ball. Nothing to do with playing on the floor, unless AVB is instructing the Reading players.

His next chance came from Dembele dribbling up the pitch as he has for years and shooting but missing the target and reaching Defoe. It was on the floor, but not intentional.

His second goal again came from a Reading mistake and Defoe dribbling half the pitch, so again noting to do with playing on the floor to his strengths.

He then did have a shot that came from a low Bale cross, but Bale does these crosses every single game we ever play. There are literally hundreds of examples.

His finals chance came from a Townsend cross which he volleyed out of the air.

Basically thought Defoe had a good game, it certainly wasn't for the reasons you have suggested. You are literally seeing what you want to. You aren't lying or being dishonest, just passionate. It's perfectly normal to do this and at times everyone does. But it makes any tactical discussions so difficult as our desire and passion often clouds are judgement.

You've said in previous posts that you think a possession based game on the ground will yield dividends. Your desire for this to be true is fueling the way you view things. We probably have kept possession and made the same amount of short passes as last season. But this season every time you see us passing it around patiently you'll see it as AVB influence, when to date there is little difference. In terms of how we have been most effective there has literally been no difference.

In reality there wont ever be much difference with the players we have. We will win plenty of games this season and play some great football. The reason no matter how we approach the game, Lennon will always be a weapon with his pace. Our defenders will always look for balls over the top, even if they are told not to (which they wont be,) as it's just impossible to not listen to instinct when you have the likes of Defoe, Bale and Lennon. Dembele will always take players out of the game with his runs. Dempsey just has an gift for scoring goals from attacking CM positions and this wont change. Sig will always look for through balls and put in good delivery. No matter what the approach, as long as we continue to see as much of the ball as we have over the last few years, we'll do well.

 

[thfcsteff]

But if you look at Defoes key involvements during the game, it totally discredits this.

His first effective moment came from winning a header in the air! From that we won the free kick that led to Sigs header and then Vertonghens shot. It had nothing at all to do with playing the ball on the floor!

The next thing was when he plucked the ball out of the air magnificently and shot just wide. This came from a long ball over the top from Naughton. Totally the opposite of what you are saying!

He then provided a chance for Sig, but this came from a Reading mistake when GK miss-controlled the ball. Nothing to do with playing on the floor, unless AVB is instructing the Reading players.

His next chance came from Dembele dribbling up the pitch as he has for years and shooting but missing the target and reaching Defoe. It was on the floor, but not intentional.

His second goal again came from a Reading mistake and Defoe dribbling half the pitch, so again noting to do with playing on the floor to his strengths.

He then did have a shot that came from a low Bale cross, but Bale does these crosses every single game we ever play. There are literally hundreds of examples.

His finals chance came from a Townsend cross which he volleyed out of the air.

Basically thought Defoe had a good game, it certainly wasn't for the reasons you have suggested. You are literally seeing what you want to. You aren't lying or being dishonest, just passionate. It's perfectly normal to do this and at times everyone does. But it makes any tactical discussions so difficult as our desire and passion often clouds are judgement.

You've said in previous posts that you think a possession based game on the ground will yield dividends. Your desire for this to be true is fueling the way you view things. We probably have kept possession and made the same amount of short passes as last season. But this season every time you see us passing it around patiently you'll see it as AVB influence, when to date there is little difference. In terms of how we have been most effective there has literally been no difference.

In reality there wont ever be much difference with the players we have. We will win plenty of games this season and play some great football. The reason no matter how we approach the game, Lennon will always be a weapon with his pace. Our defenders will always look for balls over the top, even if they are told not to (which they wont be,) as it's just impossible to not listen to instinct when you have the likes of Defoe, Bale and Lennon. Dembele will always take players out of the game with his runs. Dempsey just has an gift for scoring goals from attacking CM positions and this wont change. Sig will always look for through balls and put in good delivery. No matter what the approach, as long as we continue to see as much of the ball as we have over the last few years, we'll do well.

I like your passion and verve, but there will obviously be no convincing at all of a new approach, attitude and system being put i to place. I could sit here (if I had the time) and isolate at least half a dozen times when we resisted the opportunity to float one in or play it long, instead choosing to keep the ball on the floor, but I doubt it would make much difference as you have view and a set of statistics you have found to support your view.

With regards to your view on my desire for a possession-based game (correct BTW! ;-) ) I will point something out which I 'thought' was very obvious the past few years but which perhaps is not. Our ability to PLAY possession-based football the past few seasons has largely been down to Luka Modric. When he has not been present, we have struggled/had to switch our style considerably. The year we made the CL, Luka was out for a few months as we all know, and Huddlestone became absolutely vital simply because he could release our danger men quickly with some blinding accurate long balls (not always in the air obviously).

Perhaps the reason I am getting excited by what I see (against Reading or anyone) is the fact that we have a manager who is managing to maintain the same levels of possession and dominance WITHOUT the player around who this basically revolved for three seasons. He is developing a squad and system whereby players can slot in and drop out of roles. There is nothing to say that if Dembele was hurt, Sandro couldn't take over his role and Parker or Huddlestone (when properly fit!!!) slot in where Sandro was. We have Dempsey and Townshend able to slot into the roles Bale and Lennon are currently occupying. The jury is out as to whether these are the quality back-ups we need, I think we'd all like top drawer Emirates Marketing Project-style squad dies, but for now, AVB is making the squad work. For me, the things which you're taking for granted ignore the very VERY real fact that we are doing this stuff WITHOUT Modric, VdV and Parker, three players who have been indispensable to the club since they arrived. I think most people would agree that there was a second nervous half against West Brom and a brick performance against Norwich (again, nerves) but other than those, we have been worth wins against the 'Cash and West Brom.

Final thing about Defoe. He was able to pick the keeper's pocket/be more of a nuisance, because the pressing all around was better. You're not entirely wrong with regards to me willing Defoe to do well, but again, you have isolated a few examples when I think a greater review would show that he received more balls to feet in one match than he has received for a long long time in any match. Yes, the Townshend chance was in the air, but it wasn't lumped forward 30 yards into the oncoming CBs; that was the point I was making about how we played to Defoe i.e. we managed to remember that he is 5ft 7" or whatever. Further, both Gallas and Verts absolutely look to play the ball out far more than they do look long...

We shall see in the long-term of course, but I do think to marginalize the progress the side is making as a squad and team without the players who were basically charged with keeping us ticking over on the pitch the last 3 seasons, is perhaps slightly blinkered or lacking in perspective/

As ever, good discussion. We'd make a decent coaching duo, obviously both pretty different so would probably get great results with the blend!

 

[joey55]

I like your passion and verve, but there will obviously be no convincing at all of a new approach, attitude and system being put i to place. I could sit here (if I had the time) and isolate at least half a dozen times when we resisted the opportunity to float one in or play it long, instead choosing to keep the ball on the floor, but I doubt it would make much difference as you have view and a set of statistics you have found to support your view.

With regards to your view on my desire for a possession-based game (correct BTW! ;-) ) I will point something out which I 'thought' was very obvious the past few years but which perhaps is not. Our ability to PLAY possession-based football the past few seasons has largely been down to Luka Modric. When he has not been present, we have struggled/had to switch our style considerably. The year we made the CL, Luka was out for a few months as we all know, and Huddlestone became absolutely vital simply because he could release our danger men quickly with some blinding accurate long balls (not always in the air obviously).

Perhaps the reason I am getting excited by what I see (against Reading or anyone) is the fact that we have a manager who is managing to maintain the same levels of possession and dominance WITHOUT the player around who this basically revolved for three seasons. He is developing a squad and system whereby players can slot in and drop out of roles. There is nothing to say that if Dembele was hurt, Sandro couldn't take over his role and Parker or Huddlestone (when properly fit!!!) slot in where Sandro was. We have Dempsey and Townshend able to slot into the roles Bale and Lennon are currently occupying. The jury is out as to whether these are the quality back-ups we need, I think we'd all like top drawer Emirates Marketing Project-style squad dies, but for now, AVB is making the squad work. For me, the things which you're taking for granted ignore the very VERY real fact that we are doing this stuff WITHOUT Modric, VdV and Parker, three players who have been indispensable to the club since they arrived. I think most people would agree that there was a second nervous half against West Brom and a brick performance against Norwich (again, nerves) but other than those, we have been worth wins against the 'Cash and West Brom.

Final thing about Defoe. He was able to pick the keeper's pocket/be more of a nuisance, because the pressing all around was better. You're not entirely wrong with regards to me willing Defoe to do well, but again, you have isolated a few examples when I think a greater review would show that he received more balls to feet in one match than he has received for a long long time in any match. Yes, the Townshend chance was in the air, but it wasn't lumped forward 30 yards into the oncoming CBs; that was the point I was making about how we played to Defoe i.e. we managed to remember that he is 5ft 7" or whatever. Further, both Gallas and Verts absolutely look to play the ball out far more than they do look long...

We shall see in the long-term of course, but I do think to marginalize the progress the side is making as a squad and team without the players who were basically charged with keeping us ticking over on the pitch the last 3 seasons, is perhaps slightly blinkered or lacking in perspective/

As ever, good discussion. We'd make a decent coaching duo, obviously both pretty different so would probably get great results with the blend!

I knew you were going to say this, but if you look he wasn't pressing just prior to the moment he stole the ball. He stole the ball from the usual striker closing down the keeper, but the phase of play that led to the ball going back to the keeper Defoe didn't press until the ball had been passed cross goal. It was standard opportunistic play. Had he or anyone else pressed and forced the cross goal pass I'd say you had a point, but even that would have been pretty standard pressing for most teams.

Also Dembele had a pass completion of 89% last season. The game before he joined us he played away at Man Utd and had a pass accuracy of an incredible 96%. He made 53 passes in that game, which away to Utd for Fulham is very impressive. In his other game for Fulham this season, he again had a 96% completion rate. This time he made 73 passes. For us at the weekend he made 67 passes with 91% being accurate. So again I'm just not seeing an AVB effect. I'm not trying to be deliberately difficult, but just tell it like it is. Dembele is just a player who makes a lot of passes with and is excellent at keeping the ball. I suppose you could argue that if anything we are seeing the Martin Jol effect.

You say you are confident any of our midfield can now come in and keep possession playing as we are. But last season Sandro had an 88% pass completion. This season it's 86%. Livermore had a 91% completion rate and this season 87%. Parker is yet to play so far, but last year he had a 90% completion rate, so is unlikely to improve.

There are many reasons for you to get excited, as we've got a good team and AVB has us playing well. But the reasons you are putting forward for this just aren't happening or certainly no more than before. The players are keeping the ball well, but that is just what they've done either with us last season or their old clubs. We've scored goals, but they've been pretty typical "Spurs" goals and the other chances we've created really haven't come from any change in emphasis.

The main trouble is, because we did so well last season, it really is hard to improve on things without spending a fortune on top class players. This is why I feel AVB has his hands full and expectation placed on him was unfair and to be honest largely fueled by poor criticism of Redknapp.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

I knew you were going to say this, but if you look he wasn't pressing just prior to the moment he stole the ball. He stole the ball from the usual striker closing down the keeper, but the phase of play that led to the ball going back to the keeper Defoe didn't press until the ball had been passed cross goal. It was standard opportunistic play. Had he or anyone else pressed and forced the cross goal pass I'd say you had a point, but even that would have been pretty standard pressing for most teams.

Also Dembele had a pass completion of 89% last season. The game before he joined us he played away at Man Utd and had a pass accuracy of an incredible 96%. He made 53 passes in that game, which away to Utd for Fulham is very impressive. In his other game for Fulham this season, he again had a 96% completion rate. This time he made 73 passes. For us at the weekend he made 67 passes with 91% being accurate. So again I'm just not seeing an AVB effect. I'm not trying to be deliberately difficult, but just tell it like it is. Dembele is just a player who makes a lot of passes with and is excellent at keeping the ball. I suppose you could argue that if anything we are seeing the Martin Jol effect.

You say you are confident any of our midfield can now come in and keep possession playing as we are. But last season Sandro had an 88% pass completion. This season it's 86%. Livermore had a 91% completion rate and this season 87%. Parker is yet to play so far, but last year he had a 90% completion rate, so is unlikely to improve.

There are many reasons for you to get excited, as we've got a good team and AVB has us playing well. But the reasons you are putting forward for this just aren't happening or certainly no more than before. The players are keeping the ball well, but that is just what they've done either with us last season or their old clubs. We've scored goals, but they've been pretty typical "Spurs" goals and the other chances we've created really haven't come from any change in emphasis.

The main trouble is, because we did so well last season, it really is hard to improve on things without spending a fortune on top class players. This is why I feel AVB has his hands full and expectation placed on him was unfair and to be honest largely fueled by poor criticism of Redknapp.

Excellent post. People need to stop trying to be revisionist about the last three years, and trying to make out that we are all of a sudden a much better team just because of a Manager change. It puts massive unfair pressure on AVB.

 

[thfcsteff]

I knew you were going to say this, but if you look he wasn't pressing just prior to the moment he stole the ball. He stole the ball from the usual striker closing down the keeper, but the phase of play that led to the ball going back to the keeper Defoe didn't press until the ball had been passed cross goal. It was standard opportunistic play. Had he or anyone else pressed and forced the cross goal pass I'd say you had a point, but even that would have been pretty standard pressing for most teams.

Also Dembele had a pass completion of 89% last season. The game before he joined us he played away at Man Utd and had a pass accuracy of an incredible 96%. He made 53 passes in that game, which away to Utd for Fulham is very impressive. In his other game for Fulham this season, he again had a 96% completion rate. This time he made 73 passes. For us at the weekend he made 67 passes with 91% being accurate. So again I'm just not seeing an AVB effect. I'm not trying to be deliberately difficult, but just tell it like it is. Dembele is just a player who makes a lot of passes with and is excellent at keeping the ball. I suppose you could argue that if anything we are seeing the Martin Jol effect.

You say you are confident any of our midfield can now come in and keep possession playing as we are. But last season Sandro had an 88% pass completion. This season it's 86%. Livermore had a 91% completion rate and this season 87%. Parker is yet to play so far, but last year he had a 90% completion rate, so is unlikely to improve.

There are many reasons for you to get excited, as we've got a good team and AVB has us playing well. But the reasons you are putting forward for this just aren't happening or certainly no more than before. The players are keeping the ball well, but that is just what they've done either with us last season or their old clubs. We've scored goals, but they've been pretty typical "Spurs" goals and the other chances we've created really haven't come from any change in emphasis.

The main trouble is, because we did so well last season, it really is hard to improve on things without spending a fortune on top class players. This is why I feel AVB has his hands full and expectation placed on him was unfair and to be honest largely fueled by poor criticism of Redknapp.

A fine response, but you'll excuse me if I say I think that your are dodging an enormous truth by not responding to the issue of AVB refining, sharpening and developing a style of play established firmly around the presence last season of Modric, Parker and VdV. As for the pass completion stats, I think it'd be interesting to note the completion rate of players RECEIVING passes from those players you mention.

The change in emphasis is simple but clear. The TEAM can do this. We do not now rely on individuals to sprinkle the pixie dust. I believe AVB is developing a system wherby as long as we obviously have the right players in the right positions, we will be able to play like this smoothly and without glitches throughout a season. That is, we will be able to ride out fatigue/injuries, etc, and continue "in-flow" by using a fully-utilized and in-synch SQUAD. I think it will take a little time, but once it's 'established' I think we will take giant strides forward as opposed to being derailed by injuries/fatigue/lack of squad rotation. I understand that all this did not suddenly spring to life at Reading BTW!

With regards to the final sentence, absolutely there's truth in what you're saying, undeniable, but for some of us, the criticisms of Harry had been very consistent and did not ignore the good work he had done prior to the problems progressively arising as some of us viewed them. There is a very simple difference between the two, and it relies absolutely on an almost polarized difference in styles. One was a gift of the gab, the other is an almost OCD chalkboard warrior. The fact remains that a blend of the two would give us the greatest manager in the known universe, but I will say that if a 'type' of manager has to deal with losing Modric and VdV WITHOUT getting their number one target on (I have supported Levy but he clearly, clearly fudged the Moutinho deal up) and developing further a possession-game, then AVB is better suited and appears to be getting the pieces to click. BTW, delighted you called out Livermore's stats. I personally don't ever look to him to be Luka Modric, and always feel he does a very decent job when he comes in and plays his role. It would appear that opinion now has some statistical support.

 

[thfcsteff]

Excellent post. People need to stop trying to be revisionist about the last three years, and trying to make out that we are all of a sudden a much better team just because of a Manager change. It puts massive unfair pressure on AVB.

I don't think that's always necessarily the case at all, but I do think he has done very very well to maintain playing integrity whilst losing our most important midfielder in 20 years and our magic dust sprinkler as well as NOT getting his number one transfer choice (thanks for that Daniel!!!!!)...

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

I don't think that's always necessarily the case at all, but I do think he has done very very well to maintain playing integrity whilst losing our most important midfielder in 20 years and our magic dust sprinkler as well as NOT getting his number one transfer choice (thanks for that Daniel!!!!!)...

We have? We played very well in the first half against Reading, and did OK against Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I'd rather forget about Norwich & WBA personally.

 

[thfcsteff]

We have? We played very well in the first half against Reading, and did OK against Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I'd rather forget about Norwich & WBA personally.

I wouldn't argue that perception is the key.
I thought we were good value for 3 points at Newcash (poor finishing and bad luck with the woodwork) but played very well, I thought we should've left the pitch 3-0 up at HT against West Brom and, save the last 20 mins, we were in control. Norwich? We agree! Awful shower that one. If we'd got 3 points there it would've been robbery.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

I wouldn't argue that perception is the key.
I thought we were good value for 3 points at Newcash (poor finishing and bad luck with the woodwork) but played very well, I thought we should've left the pitch 3-0 up at HT against West Brom and, save the last 20 mins, we were in control. Norwich? We agree! Awful shower that one. If we'd got 3 points there it would've been robbery.

My personal take on the first four games (and I was at the Norwich and WBA games unfortunately):

Saudi Sportswashing Machine - we were unlucky not to take a point. As is quite common on opening day I thought both teams were poor but that made for an entertaining match.

WBA - They sat back and let us have the ball in our own half. For most of the time we passed the ball around without any purpose until one of the WBA players either got fed up and did close our player down or our own player got bored. At that moment we hit it long. And we hit it long way too much against WBA, especially as we hit it long to Defoe. What was worse for me is that the whole game was so flat. No desire, no passion, no high tempo. WBA were well worth their point and didn't even have to work that hard for it.

Norwich - Enough said

Reading - First half I thought we were generally excellent. A little sloppy in possession sometimes, but dominated. In the second half Reading showed much more and were actually the better side when we scored our second and then third against the run of play. Which killed what little spirit Reading had left and we coasted to a good victory.

 

[joey55]

A fine response, but you'll excuse me if I say I think that your are dodging an enormous truth by not responding to the issue of AVB refining, sharpening and developing a style of play established firmly around the presence last season of Modric, Parker and VdV. As for the pass completion stats, I think it'd be interesting to note the completion rate of players RECEIVING passes from those players you mention.

The change in emphasis is simple but clear. The TEAM can do this. We do not now rely on individuals to sprinkle the pixie dust. I believe AVB is developing a system wherby as long as we obviously have the right players in the right positions, we will be able to play like this smoothly and without glitches throughout a season. That is, we will be able to ride out fatigue/injuries, etc, and continue "in-flow" by using a fully-utilized and in-synch SQUAD. I think it will take a little time, but once it's 'established' I think we will take giant strides forward as opposed to being derailed by injuries/fatigue/lack of squad rotation. I understand that all this did not suddenly spring to life at Reading BTW!

With regards to the final sentence, absolutely there's truth in what you're saying, undeniable, but for some of us, the criticisms of Harry had been very consistent and did not ignore the good work he had done prior to the problems progressively arising as some of us viewed them. There is a very simple difference between the two, and it relies absolutely on an almost polarized difference in styles. One was a gift of the gab, the other is an almost OCD chalkboard warrior. The fact remains that a blend of the two would give us the greatest manager in the known universe, but I will say that if a 'type' of manager has to deal with losing Modric and VdV WITHOUT getting their number one target on (I have supported Levy but he clearly, clearly fudged the Moutinho deal up) and developing further a possession-game, then AVB is better suited and appears to be getting the pieces to click. BTW, delighted you called out Livermore's stats. I personally don't ever look to him to be Luka Modric, and always feel he does a very decent job when he comes in and plays his role. It would appear that opinion now has some statistical support.

Well rather than go through each individual player which would take a while, we can just use the whole team stats and compare this with last season.

We averaged 56% possession last season and the exact same figure this season.

Last season 83% of our passes were short and this season 82%. This will come as a shock to you, but not for many others who simply aren't seeing what you are.

Last season we played 13% long passes and the same this season. Again this will come as a shock to you, but as I pointed out with my analysis of Defoe's game, we are still playing long balls and will continue to. If Naughton or anyone else has the chance to play it over the top they will. It didn't take the Hudd long to start looking for the cross field passes. It's just the way it is and the way it will continue to be. It would be insane no to with the payers we have.

Through balls are the same at 1%, which is to be expected. Crosses we are playing 1% more than last season.

Basically what you are seeing just isn't much if any different to what you saw last season. We are playing less adventurously, but that is probably far more to do with the fact we don't have Modric and VDV. You are crediting AVB for it, but it's actually a bad thing and I seriously doubt it's what he wants. If we had some better creative players in the middle, we'd pass the ball a bit more adventurously. At the moment we've just got a lot of players who are excellent at keeping the ball and were before AVB ever met any of them.

So to date AVB hasn't sharpened or refined anything of note really. In terms of our passing and possession it's insanely similar to last season. This is what many others are seeing. The difference is the passing lacks the tempo and quality, but that is down to player changes. If there is a change it's that AVB has us passing more in deeper areas. But he'll soon scrap that nonsense as well.

Also you say we no longer rely on individuals to sprinkle the pixie dust, but I saw Dembele score a goal that seemed pretty skill full that got us a point at Norwich. I thought Defoe's second against Reading was due to him running from the half way line. BAE got us a point at WBA from a long range effort. Without moments of great individual play, wouldn't we have been really in the brick this season.

I really like debating with you, but honestly your enthusiasm is getting the better of you.

 

[braineclipse]

Well rather than go through each individual player which would take a while, we can just use the whole team stats and compare this with last season.

We averaged 56% possession last season and the exact same figure this season.

Last season 83% of our passes were short and this season 82%. This will come as a shock to you, but not for many others who simply aren't seeing what you are.

Last season we played 13% long passes and the same this season. Again this will come as a shock to you, but as I pointed out with my analysis of Defoe's game, we are still playing long balls and will continue to. If Naughton or anyone else has the chance to play it over the top they will. It didn't take the Hudd long to start looking for the cross field passes. It's just the way it is and the way it will continue to be. It would be insane no to with the payers we have.

Through balls are the same at 1%, which is to be expected. Crosses we are playing 1% more than last season.

Basically what you are seeing just isn't much if any different to what you saw last season. We are playing less adventurously, but that is probably far more to do with the fact we don't have Modric and VDV. You are crediting AVB for it, but it's actually a bad thing and I seriously doubt it's what he wants. If we had some better creative players in the middle, we'd pass the ball a bit more adventurously. At the moment we've just got a lot of players who are excellent at keeping the ball and were before AVB ever met any of them.

So to date AVB hasn't sharpened or refined anything of note really. In terms of our passing and possession it's insanely similar to last season. This is what many others are seeing. The difference is the passing lacks the tempo and quality, but that is down to player changes. If there is a change it's that AVB has us passing more in deeper areas. But he'll soon scrap that nonsense as well.

Also you say we no longer rely on individuals to sprinkle the pixie dust, but I saw Dembele score a goal that seemed pretty skill full that got us a point at Norwich. I thought Defoe's second against Reading was due to him running from the half way line. BAE got us a point at WBA from a long range effort. Without moments of great individual play, wouldn't we have been really in the brick this season.

I really like debating with you, but honestly your enthusiasm is getting the better of you.

I think it's way to early to look at those stats to learn anything from them.

1. We still have players getting into the side after signing late in the window. Dembele made his first start last game, will most likely be first choice. Having him in there giving us more creativity and skill on the ball will change things a bit compared to the Sandro/Livermore pairing. I think Lloris will change things a bit as well as he's better on the ball.

2. Very early days still, the team is still adapting to AVB and he is probably easing them into the change he's looking for.

3. Very early days still, just 4 games to get those stats from, far from a good sample size and we're still to meet a truly top side.

Also those stats don't really give a complete picture, there is a massive difference between a long pass aimed accurately at a player that is in space and a hoof upfield from the back when under pressure. Yet both get classified as long passes.

I do think we've changed things a bit and we have seen signs of what AVB is looking to do. There will be more changes coming I think, not least because this team will settle in. After that there might be some noticeable changes in the stats as well.

 

[joey55]

I think it's way to early to look at those stats to learn anything from them.

1. We still have players getting into the side after signing late in the window. Dembele made his first start last game, will most likely be first choice. Having him in there giving us more creativity and skill on the ball will change things a bit compared to the Sandro/Livermore pairing. I think Lloris will change things a bit as well as he's better on the ball.

2. Very early days still, the team is still adapting to AVB and he is probably easing them into the change he's looking for.

3. Very early days still, just 4 games to get those stats from, far from a good sample size and we're still to meet a truly top side.

Also those stats don't really give a complete picture, there is a massive difference between a long pass aimed accurately at a player that is in space and a hoof upfield from the back when under pressure. Yet both get classified as long passes.

I do think we've changed things a bit and we have seen signs of what AVB is looking to do. There will be more changes coming I think, not least because this team will settle in. After that there might be some noticeable changes in the stats as well.

I can't say your points 1-3 are wrong, but they aren't really relevant to the discussion as such, as we are literally talking about the AVB influence so far. thfcsteff has noted things that I and others haven't.

As regards you long pass concern, if under either management we were hoofing the ball, as opposed to making accurate long passes, then we'd see a difference in the overall passing accuracy stats and there isn't any. As I pointed out those who are known for making less adventurous passes have virtually the same or slightly less passing accuracy than last season. So given this is the same and over all accuracy is the same, it means long pass accuracy has to be the same. And as we saw on Sunday the kind of long passes are the typical one's we saw last season. So it's a mix of using stats and observation.

 

[colin fishwick]

I do think it was a slightly different and better away performance. There seemed to be slight changes that were pleasing.

What there did not seem to be, was the high, hit and hope cross [ which is the curse of the English game ] the players seem to have been instructed to look up and play the ball on the ground more, from wide positions.

This may be a coincidence and we may revert back, but I would say, the performance did have a different feel to it , which was surprising given no Modric or VDV.

 

[thfcsteff]

Well rather than go through each individual player which would take a while, we can just use the whole team stats and compare this with last season.

We averaged 56% possession last season and the exact same figure this season.

Last season 83% of our passes were short and this season 82%. This will come as a shock to you, but not for many others who simply aren't seeing what you are.

Last season we played 13% long passes and the same this season. Again this will come as a shock to you, but as I pointed out with my analysis of Defoe's game, we are still playing long balls and will continue to. If Naughton or anyone else has the chance to play it over the top they will. It didn't take the Hudd long to start looking for the cross field passes. It's just the way it is and the way it will continue to be. It would be insane no to with the payers we have.

Through balls are the same at 1%, which is to be expected. Crosses we are playing 1% more than last season.

Basically what you are seeing just isn't much if any different to what you saw last season. We are playing less adventurously, but that is probably far more to do with the fact we don't have Modric and VDV. You are crediting AVB for it, but it's actually a bad thing and I seriously doubt it's what he wants. If we had some better creative players in the middle, we'd pass the ball a bit more adventurously. At the moment we've just got a lot of players who are excellent at keeping the ball and were before AVB ever met any of them.

So to date AVB hasn't sharpened or refined anything of note really. In terms of our passing and possession it's insanely similar to last season. This is what many others are seeing. The difference is the passing lacks the tempo and quality, but that is down to player changes. If there is a change it's that AVB has us passing more in deeper areas. But he'll soon scrap that nonsense as well.

Also you say we no longer rely on individuals to sprinkle the pixie dust, but I saw Dembele score a goal that seemed pretty skill full that got us a point at Norwich. I thought Defoe's second against Reading was due to him running from the half way line. BAE got us a point at WBA from a long range effort. Without moments of great individual play, wouldn't we have been really in the brick this season.

I really like debating with you, but honestly your enthusiasm is getting the better of you.

So, addressing your first point...there are a lot of people who are seeing difference, they just aren't all on GG
The thing you're missing from the points I'm making are that AVB has made it a system of play which is reliant on executing the SYSTEM as opposed to being reliant on individuals to make it work. It is why, sadly, a CB like the mighty Daws is no longer wanted; because the manager wants options who can slot in and play from the back.

Your point re: Hudd is absolutely noted. It is why he will not be a long-term part of the squad unless he can adapt his play. No-one is saying that there will never be a long ball again, just that the manager is moving us to a side which has a system, not simply 11 very talented players under-pinned by several glittering talents.

Your goal examples are, frankly, trite, and I'm sure on reflection you'd agree. Again, not every goal we score is going to be the stuff of 'pixie dust' but I suspect that you know what I mean. If not, we can go again ;-)

I think you are circling around a very important fact which somehow seems to eluding you. To be clear on it...the manager is putting system into place that works for the squad and does not necessarily rely on one or two vital players to make it work. I think even you would be forced to agree that our reliance on Luka Modric, Bale and (to a lesser extent than those two but still pretty major in terms of creating space from nowhere and movement) VdV for the last two seasons has been enormous. Once again, two of those three players are gone, and the other appears to finally be getting coached to play as part of a team where he can shone as opposed to be the man who has to shine for the team. The two are different.

Much like Harry and AVB, I think if you took elements of what we're each saying, we would make a fine single coach!!!!

 

[thfcsteff]

I think it's way to early to look at those stats to learn anything from them.

1. We still have players getting into the side after signing late in the window. Dembele made his first start last game, will most likely be first choice. Having him in there giving us more creativity and skill on the ball will change things a bit compared to the Sandro/Livermore pairing. I think Lloris will change things a bit as well as he's better on the ball.

2. Very early days still, the team is still adapting to AVB and he is probably easing them into the change he's looking for.

3. Very early days still, just 4 games to get those stats from, far from a good sample size and we're still to meet a truly top side.

Also those stats don't really give a complete picture, there is a massive difference between a long pass aimed accurately at a player that is in space and a hoof upfield from the back when under pressure. Yet both get classified as long passes.

I do think we've changed things a bit and we have seen signs of what AVB is looking to do. There will be more changes coming I think, not least because this team will settle in. After that there might be some noticeable changes in the stats as well.

Good post, agreed. Once AVB has the squad exactly as he wants it, we will see the benefits of what he's establishing IMHO...I look forward to a day when we can not worry about a game being tough because we are missing a key player!

 

[braineclipse]

I can't say your points 1-3 are wrong, but they aren't really relevant to the discussion as such, as we are literally talking about the AVB influence so far. thfcsteff has noted things that I and others haven't.

As regards you long pass concern, if under either management we were hoofing the ball, as opposed to making accurate long passes, then we'd see a difference in the overall passing accuracy stats and there isn't any. As I pointed out those who are known for making less adventurous passes have virtually the same or slightly less passing accuracy than last season. So given this is the same and over all accuracy is the same, it means long pass accuracy has to be the same. And as we saw on Sunday the kind of long passes are the typical one's we saw last season. So it's a mix of using stats and observation.

There can be changes that can be noticeable without them showing up in those stats, especially with that small sample size.

13% of the passes were long passes, right? Changes in the accuracy of those will have a very small impact on the overall pass completion compared to those 87%. A difference in short pass accuracy would easily change that.

Just saying that you can't read much from these stats at this point and that there can be (and in my opinion are) differences to be seen in style despite these stats being similar.

 

[metalgear]

all will be revealed when ade gets to start.
with his work rate and more intelligent runs, (plus his experience at arsenal with similar type of play) i'm counting on him to score more goals.