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AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread

There can be changes that can be noticeable without them showing up in those stats, especially with that small sample size.

13% of the passes were long passes, right? Changes in the accuracy of those will have a very small impact on the overall pass completion compared to those 87%. A difference in short pass accuracy would easily change that.

Just saying that you can't read much from these stats at this point and that there can be (and in my opinion are) differences to be seen in style despite these stats being similar.

I think one of the most interesting things I get from my discussions with Joey55, are how both of us rely on certain approaches in taking games/digesting them. I personally prefer to take in what I'm seeing and FEELING about what I'm seeing, from the immediate movement/shape to the way the players are responding. Joey seems to take a far more stat-supported perspective. My feeling has always been that statistics are really only as good as the context in which they're viewed, however to deny their usefulness would be churlish. I think it's two different ways of looking at the game, and one can only hope that every good football club has the same different perspectives so as the head coach/manager can draw definite supportive conclusions.

...of course, I will always believe I'm right LOL ;)8)
 
One thing that pleased me greatly is that AVB has finally made Townsend a bench player. The kid has got it in him and can make an impact off the bench. Good job.
 
I think one of the most interesting things I get from my discussions with Joey55, are how both of us rely on certain approaches in taking games/digesting them. I personally prefer to take in what I'm seeing and FEELING about what I'm seeing, from the immediate movement/shape to the way the players are responding. Joey seems to take a far more stat-supported perspective. My feeling has always been that statistics are really only as good as the context in which they're viewed, however to deny their usefulness would be churlish. I think it's two different ways of looking at the game, and one can only hope that every good football club has the same different perspectives so as the head coach/manager can draw definite supportive conclusions.

...of course, I will always believe I'm right LOL ;)8)

I only use stats to confirm what I'm saying is true. If the stats suggest otherwise I'll take another look. Check out the fist 10 mins of yesterdays games and you'll see 3 classic examples (from Lloric, Verts and Sandro) of what last season fans would have called hoof ball. The stats support we are playing just as many long balls. Braineclipse makes the point stats don't tell you the accuracy of each individual pass, but for there to be any difference in the idea, it would have to mean that previously we were told to just hoof the ball, which is ridiculous. If you just take the examples of Defoe's involvement that I highlighted the other day. 3 of those came from long aerial balls. The reason the GK had the ball for Defoe to close down, was because we'd played a direct ball from our defence, the length of the pitch and their keeper collected it. Defoe's chance when he pulled the ball down came from a long ball over the top, from Naughton. Sigs header come for a free kick that was won from a long ball played from our defence to the other end of the pitch. So I see these things and then check the stats to make sure it's a true, rather than selective opinion, of what is happening.

I'd say you use feeling and pre-conceived ideas of what AVB will do. Every time you see something that matches, you put this down to AVB, but you aren't being comparative to what happened before.

What a coach can really do with a team like ours is so incredibly limited if they want to continue having good results. As I've said before we'll see some great football and have lots of great wins this season. But when they happen, look at the key moments and be honest with yourself about what really caused them. It will nearly always be due to players doing what they've been doing long before this season. If they end up doing these things much more frequently and as a result we score and concede more and less goals, then at the end of the season I think it will be worth reviewing if we can actually pinpoint this to any changes in our approach that AVB has brought in. But at the moment it seems people are trying to see changes having an impact that they simply aren't.
 
I only use stats to confirm what I'm saying is true. If the stats suggest otherwise I'll take another look. Check out the fist 10 mins of yesterdays games and you'll see 3 classic examples (from Lloric, Verts and Sandro) of what last season fans would have called hoof ball. The stats support we are playing just as many long balls. Braineclipse makes the point stats don't tell you the accuracy of each individual pass, but for there to be any difference in the idea, it would have to mean that previously we were told to just hoof the ball, which is ridiculous. If you just take the examples of Defoe's involvement that I highlighted the other day. 3 of those came from long aerial balls. The reason the GK had the ball for Defoe to close down, was because we'd played a direct ball from our defence, the length of the pitch and their keeper collected it. Defoe's chance when he pulled the ball down came from a long ball over the top, from Naughton. Sigs header come for a free kick that was won from a long ball played from our defence to the other end of the pitch. So I see these things and then check the stats to make sure it's a true, rather than selective opinion, of what is happening.

I'd say you use feeling and pre-conceived ideas of what AVB will do. Every time you see something that matches, you put this down to AVB, but you aren't being comparative to what happened before.

What a coach can really do with a team like ours is so incredibly limited if they want to continue having good results. As I've said before we'll see some great football and have lots of great wins this season. But when they happen, look at the key moments and be honest with yourself about what really caused them. It will nearly always be due to players doing what they've been doing long before this season. If they end up doing these things much more frequently and as a result we score and concede more and less goals, then at the end of the season I think it will be worth reviewing if we can actually pinpoint this to any changes in our approach that AVB has brought in. But at the moment it seems people are trying to see changes having an impact that they simply aren't.

We will thus have to agree to disagree. I actually saw far more examples of our CBs carrying the ball out and passing on the deck into the channels or Defoe. I suppose it's what the eyes catches eh? If AVB had Moutinho, as he wanted, it would be far clearer. as for the bit about last season 'told to just hoof the ball, which is ridiculous' absolutely not what is being said...BUT there is no doubt at all that Harry relied far more strongly on the side to produce moments themselves as a consequence of a footballing philosophy, and that there was never any specific tactical brief beyond playing through Luka/using width and pace whenever possible. Rafa, for example, often had something of a free role, and in that sense AVB has already made a massive change in basically boilerplating that free roles are not going to be handed out. We shall see. I know what I feel and I know what I'm sensing, plus I'm seeing something differently to that which you're suggesting. I stand by that 100%, in the knowledge that one man's 'long ball' is another man's accurate pass! There is a shift in emphasis at the club under AVB, and (for me) that shift is more about control and dominance of the ball than beauty. At some point, beauty will come as a result, but swashbuckling with flair and individual brilliance is not part of the current regime. At this point, neither of us will agree so a warm handshake from it is and again, an agreement to disagree! ;-)
 
One win at Reading won't scatter the vultures loitering over the new Tottenham manager, their wings flaring angrily in Harry Redknapp's sinking sun. But then the vulture was not designed to dissemble. Its head leers hideously from that hunched cape, as though from a stained old mackintosh. A creature that ugly could not possibly be a vegetarian. Sure enough, those eager to depict Andre Villas-Boas as carrion – not least those Spurs fans who had booed his new team's first skirmishes together – seem most provoked by his very youth, polish and glamour.

They see AVB's vanity as seamless: his intellectual pride extending to a broader self-regard, a precocious assumption of superiority over a slack-featured old man, who himself played up to an image of unpretentious semi-literacy, and credited his success to sheer human instinct and warmth. In short, they suspect that AVB "fancies himself". And, reduced to a privileged Iberian dilettante, murmuring compliments to the mirror in five languages as he manicures his stubble, he might in turn betray an equally superficial complacency in those methods that likewise set him apart from his predecessor.

Last week Redknapp lampooned the coaching style associated with his successor in terms that will have made equal sense to both camps. To AVB, in fact, the very suggestion that 70-page dossiers merely mess with players' heads will expose the limits of Redknapp's ambition. A primitive dependence on intuition and gumption was never going to introduce the flexibilities required to take Spurs – wholesomely restored as they were – to the next level. OK, so maybe it's not rocket science. But nor is it just a case of telling them to "effing run about a bit".

To cut-the-crap Redknapp, sophistry and sophistication are one and the same. He scoffs at agonised cerebration over formations. Some of this may be bluff. But he plainly mistrusts those pilots who explain the exhilaration of flight by reference to all those dials and buttons on the console.

In the media, at least, the AVB debate has found a new crucible in the arrival of Hugo Lloris. Never mind the relative roles of the manager and his employer, Daniel Levy. The net result is a choice between a seasoned Premier League professional whose experience (and, therefore, reliability) is eloquently evinced by the fact that he is entirely bald, and a Continental interloper with a youthful shock of dark hair and romantic cheekbones.

It is no coincidence, presumably, that Lloris has chosen shirt No 25. That is his age, as a goalkeeper entering his prime, already world-class and 16 years younger than Brad Friedel. The veteran's sprightly response has delighted those imploring AVB to fail. Ostensibly, he must now deal with the captain of France fuming on the bench. But the bottom line is that one of the key positions in the squad is now secured for its medium-term evolution. And if Lloris has to endure the indignity of a few weeks' observation, while adjusting to his defenders and their language in cup games, big deal.

Heurelho Gomes, for one, might well have been grateful for some such transition. And who knows? From the sidelines, Lloris might well resolve to redress the veteran incumbent's culpable reluctance to leave his goal-line. Ultimately, all parties can and will be sensible about this. Friedel already knew perfectly well he would not be No 1 next season. Levy has avoided a shotgun wedding in the summer. And Lloris, with his excellent distribution, will very soon be the bedrock of a team aspiring to something more lasting than living on its wits. The keeper-sweeper role, after all, is just the kind of thing that might have featured in those "long, boring speeches on tactics" that maddened Rafael van der Vaart before Redknapp rescued him from Real Madrid.

In the end, when Redknapp's men asked themselves whether they had a head for heights, they succumbed to vertigo. If his apologists portray last Sunday as meaningless, they will doubtless take the same view of the fact that it was only Tottenham's second away league win of 2012.

Whether he benched Friedel or Lloris, you could guarantee that AVB was always going to be accused of disrespectful man-management, of an arrogant failure to learn his lessons at Chelsea. Yet while all the new signings bed down, he is already disclosing fresh dimensions in some – Sandro, most obviously – who had seemed to reach their limits either in Redknapp's mind or his tactics.

Though QPR will be no pushover tomorrow, the vultures have booked a committee meeting for Old Trafford next weekend. Spurs always roll over obediently there. And then just wait for mid-November, and consecutive away games at Emirates Marketing Project, Arsenal and Lazio. How succulent a prey he will be, this preening, condescending usurper of pally 'Arry!

Well, let's see. The battle lines are drawn. One camp – the vultures, or those they mock as believing in Santa Claus – is going to enjoy its Christmas turkey a good deal more than another. To some of us, however, there is already evidence that AVB is both old and ugly enough for the beautiful game

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...res-and-set-spurs-in-full-flight-8163783.html
 
Thanks for that link Dometop, what a great read. Bias though it is, I am palpably relieved to see someone in the media actually defending, and applauding, AVB and what he's trying to do as opposed to dumb it down and amplify negatives against him.
 
One win at Reading won't scatter the vultures loitering over the new Tottenham manager, their wings flaring angrily in Harry Redknapp's sinking sun. But then the vulture was not designed to dissemble. Its head leers hideously from that hunched cape, as though from a stained old mackintosh. A creature that ugly could not possibly be a vegetarian. Sure enough, those eager to depict Andre Villas-Boas as carrion – not least those Spurs fans who had booed his new team's first skirmishes together – seem most provoked by his very youth, polish and glamour.

They see AVB's vanity as seamless: his intellectual pride extending to a broader self-regard, a precocious assumption of superiority over a slack-featured old man, who himself played up to an image of unpretentious semi-literacy, and credited his success to sheer human instinct and warmth. In short, they suspect that AVB "fancies himself". And, reduced to a privileged Iberian dilettante, murmuring compliments to the mirror in five languages as he manicures his stubble, he might in turn betray an equally superficial complacency in those methods that likewise set him apart from his predecessor.

Last week Redknapp lampooned the coaching style associated with his successor in terms that will have made equal sense to both camps. To AVB, in fact, the very suggestion that 70-page dossiers merely mess with players' heads will expose the limits of Redknapp's ambition. A primitive dependence on intuition and gumption was never going to introduce the flexibilities required to take Spurs – wholesomely restored as they were – to the next level. OK, so maybe it's not rocket science. But nor is it just a case of telling them to "effing run about a bit".

To cut-the-crap Redknapp, sophistry and sophistication are one and the same. He scoffs at agonised cerebration over formations. Some of this may be bluff. But he plainly mistrusts those pilots who explain the exhilaration of flight by reference to all those dials and buttons on the console.

In the media, at least, the AVB debate has found a new crucible in the arrival of Hugo Lloris. Never mind the relative roles of the manager and his employer, Daniel Levy. The net result is a choice between a seasoned Premier League professional whose experience (and, therefore, reliability) is eloquently evinced by the fact that he is entirely bald, and a Continental interloper with a youthful shock of dark hair and romantic cheekbones.

It is no coincidence, presumably, that Lloris has chosen shirt No 25. That is his age, as a goalkeeper entering his prime, already world-class and 16 years younger than Brad Friedel. The veteran's sprightly response has delighted those imploring AVB to fail. Ostensibly, he must now deal with the captain of France fuming on the bench. But the bottom line is that one of the key positions in the squad is now secured for its medium-term evolution. And if Lloris has to endure the indignity of a few weeks' observation, while adjusting to his defenders and their language in cup games, big deal.

Heurelho Gomes, for one, might well have been grateful for some such transition. And who knows? From the sidelines, Lloris might well resolve to redress the veteran incumbent's culpable reluctance to leave his goal-line. Ultimately, all parties can and will be sensible about this. Friedel already knew perfectly well he would not be No 1 next season. Levy has avoided a shotgun wedding in the summer. And Lloris, with his excellent distribution, will very soon be the bedrock of a team aspiring to something more lasting than living on its wits. The keeper-sweeper role, after all, is just the kind of thing that might have featured in those "long, boring speeches on tactics" that maddened Rafael van der Vaart before Redknapp rescued him from Real Madrid.

In the end, when Redknapp's men asked themselves whether they had a head for heights, they succumbed to vertigo. If his apologists portray last Sunday as meaningless, they will doubtless take the same view of the fact that it was only Tottenham's second away league win of 2012.

Whether he benched Friedel or Lloris, you could guarantee that AVB was always going to be accused of disrespectful man-management, of an arrogant failure to learn his lessons at Chelsea. Yet while all the new signings bed down, he is already disclosing fresh dimensions in some – Sandro, most obviously – who had seemed to reach their limits either in Redknapp's mind or his tactics.

Though QPR will be no pushover tomorrow, the vultures have booked a committee meeting for Old Trafford next weekend. Spurs always roll over obediently there. And then just wait for mid-November, and consecutive away games at Emirates Marketing Project, Arsenal and Lazio. How succulent a prey he will be, this preening, condescending usurper of pally 'Arry!

Well, let's see. The battle lines are drawn. One camp – the vultures, or those they mock as believing in Santa Claus – is going to enjoy its Christmas turkey a good deal more than another. To some of us, however, there is already evidence that AVB is both old and ugly enough for the beautiful game

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...res-and-set-spurs-in-full-flight-8163783.html

Interesting article and then he gets to the Sandro point which is a complete and utter load of gonads. Leaving us with? Yet another journalist who doesn't have a fudging clue what he is talking about. I fudging despise journalist editorials. Editorials should only be written by people who have been involved in the practice, not those who preach theory.
 
Interesting article and then he gets to the Sandro point which is a complete and utter load of gonads. Leaving us with? Yet another journalist who doesn't have a fudging clue what he is talking about. I fudging despise journalist editorials. Editorials should only be written by people who have been involved in the practice, not those who preach theory.

Do you despise journalists?
 
Thanks for that link Dometop, what a great read. Bias though it is, I am palpably relieved to see someone in the media actually defending, and applauding, AVB and what he's trying to do as opposed to dumb it down and amplify negatives against him.

Indeed.
 
What's incredible is how few people are prepared to speak out like this. It's amazing the hold he has over his media fiefdom...
 
Should AVB stick with 4-4-2 formation at home now??

Just come back from the game and we were lucky to come away with the win to be honest. In the first half we were dreadful and looked like we'd been out on the lash the night before, QPR had had 6 corners to our none and at least 60% possession. We again started the game so slowly and gave the impetuous to QPR, under Harry we were always out of blocks so quickly and all over the opposition. I'm worried about this system under AVB with 5 in midfield at home because we've played relatively poor teams so far and are struggling so it's gonna get harder against better sides imo.

Some negatives with his current system

1) The midfield arent supplying Defoe with enough ball in this system
2) We're not making anywhere as near as many chances as we did in the 4-4-2 system.
3) Defoe caught off side too much to play up on his own

Alot of the time QPR had 4 in there against our 5 in the first half and they were all over us. We also dont really make as many chances as we have done with 4-4-2 over the years chances and for a team that has 2 of the best wingers in the league it doesnt do us any favours.

Alot of us in the Park Lane were calling for AVB to change the formation at half time and put JV out to left back and bring on Caulker in the centre and push Dempsey up alongside Defoe and it worked. The change was justified and it totally changed the game and put us on the front foot and we looked far more dangerous.

I think AVB has to think long and hard now about how we play at the Lane but will he be stubborn and stick to his usual formation moving forward?

I think possibly when Ade is fit we can play 1 up but the supply from midfield has to be so much better and i think away from home and against Man U we might might stick with that but definitely at the Lane 4-4-2 works better imo as teams tend to sit in and we pose much more threat with 2 wide.

JV was man of the match. Thought Sandro was below par. I think when Parker is back fit it's a close call between those 2. Parker has a very good win record when he plays.

Thoughts?
 
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Re: Should AVB stick with 4-4-2 formation at home now??

I look forward to seeing the formation with Ade up top as you say. But I worry about Dempsey and Sig being able to replace VdV effectively to the same level.
 
Re: Should AVB stick with 4-4-2 formation at home now??

4231 will only work away and has looked effective away albeit two away games.

It will not work at home.
 
Re: Should AVB stick with 4-4-2 formation at home now??

I personally felt we should have fought harder to keep VDV, he seemed to leave so quickly like he was told he wont start many games by AVB or something. I would have had VDV starting with Sig to come off the bench as VDV often couldnt last 90 mins and slowly integrated him into the side as i thought his goals from midfield would help the team. Ok we made 2 mill on him but its very hard to replace class. For me AVB and Levy got that one wrong. Sig doesnt seem to know his position in the side at the moment which is strange as he looked half decent scoring some good goals in pre-season.
 
Re: Should AVB stick with 4-4-2 formation at home now??

The key with any formation is its adaptability and having a manager realise when it isn't working.

Today AVB gets a 10 in my book as he changed the system to a 4 4 2 with the right players in the right positions (from this that were available)

IMO other managers we have had in the past wold have waited longer that AVB did today to do that.

He will discover a system as the team evolves in my view as Harry did and that will bring out the best in the players.

I'm a massive 4 4 2 fan and it suits us against teams that actually attack which this year looks like most teams but lets see how that works when teams really need the points.
 
Re: Should AVB stick with 4-4-2 formation at home now??

The key with any formation is its adaptability and having a manager realise when it isn't working.

Today AVB gets a 10 in my book as he changed the system to a 4 4 2 with the right players in the right positions (from this that were available)

IMO other managers we have had in the past wold have waited longer that AVB did today to do that.

He will discover a system as the team evolves in my view as Harry did and that will bring out the best in the players.

I'm a massive 4 4 2 fan and it suits us against teams that actually attack which this year looks like most teams but lets see how that works when teams really need the points.

Its hasnt taken AVB only 45 mins its taken him 3.5 games to do this. Home games we have been brick (yeah yeah some for some reason think we played well against WBA/Lazio - I beg to differ but we are all allowed opinions) and we need to sort it out. We do not look convincing at all at home an dtoday was a very lucky win. Without the own goal i couldnt see us scoring. No creativity thats not down to AVB but then we must play 442 at home to make up for the lack of creativity.

Away games im perfectly happy with the tactics AVB uses 4231 and I think we will be very good against Manure next week.
 
Re: Should AVB stick with 4-4-2 formation at home now??

Its hasnt taken AVB only 45 mins its taken him 3.5 games to do this. Home games we have been brick (yeah yeah some for some reason think we played well against WBA/Lazio - I beg to differ but we are all allowed opinions) and we need to sort it out. We do not look convincing at all at home an dtoday was a very lucky win. Without the own goal i couldnt see us scoring. No creativity thats not down to AVB but then we must play 442 at home to make up for the lack of creativity.

Away games im perfectly happy with the tactics AVB uses 4231 and I think we will be very good against Manure next week.

Indeed matey...'tis what keeps things interesting! ;-)
 
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