AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread

[metalgear]

When you guys talk about a "high defensive line" are you talking about when we have possession, when we don't have possession or both?

To me it makes very little sense to talk about a high defensive line when we have possession.

i was trying to find out if AVB played Porto with a high defensive line 100% of the time - with and without possession. like Shrop yid i think some adaptation is needed for the english game.

 

[braineclipse]

It is both, if you play a high line in possesion then it compresses the play and gives you more passing options, the only downer is you can get caught by the ball played over the top, its going to be bloody interesting at the start of next season.

This image is from the Peter Crouch volley goal for Stoke against City (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpo34w_peter-crouch-amazing-goal-x-man-city_sport)

This is as the camera is panning left to track a goal kick punted up field by Stoke. This is at 0-0 against City so it's unlikely Stoke were in all out attack mode. Yet their defenders are 10 yards from the half way line and still walking forwards.

You don't see people going on about how Stoke play a high line defensively though! I've given the example before about Cahill's sending off against us, he was the last (or 2nd last) defender and almost at the half way line. Yet you don't see people going on about how Bolton play a high line...

All teams play a relatively high line in possession as soon as the opponents are pushed back one way or the other. To talk about AVB's high line defending when talking about situations when we have possession still makes no sense to me. Does anyone have any example of teams that play a deep line with their defenders when they are attacking into the opposing half? It sounds like the definition of having a team that is stretched. Might happen sometimes towards the end of games when players are very tired or when one team is only attacking on the break with a couple of players and the rest stay in position. But as an overall strategy? I would like to hear some examples...

 

[Jimmy-g]

This image is from the Peter Crouch volley goal for Stoke against City (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpo34w_peter-crouch-amazing-goal-x-man-city_sport)

This is as the camera is panning left to track a goal kick punted up field by Stoke. This is at 0-0 against City so it's unlikely Stoke were in all out attack mode. Yet their defenders are 10 yards from the half way line and still walking forwards.

You don't see people going on about how Stoke play a high line defensively though! I've given the example before about Cahill's sending off against us, he was the last (or 2nd last) defender and almost at the half way line. Yet you don't see people going on about how Bolton play a high line...

All teams play a relatively high line in possession as soon as the opponents are pushed back one way or the other. To talk about AVB's high line defending when talking about situations when we have possession still makes no sense to me. Does anyone have any example of teams that play a deep line with their defenders when they are attacking into the opposing half? It sounds like the definition of having a team that is stretched. Might happen sometimes towards the end of games when players are very tired or when one team is only attacking on the break with a couple of players and the rest stay in position. But as an overall strategy? I would like to hear some examples...

Good points, I think its become popular over the last few years because players are a lot fitter now and are better athletes, in my mind with good players it enables you to keep possesion a lot easier, I think Stoke and the like play a high line purely to enable the offside law to be used not to enable more possesion.

 

[braineclipse]

Good points, I think its become popular over the last few years because players are a lot fitter now and are better athletes, in my mind with good players it enables you to keep possesion a lot easier, I think Stoke and the like play a high line purely to enable the offside law to be used not to enable more possesion.

It has very little to do with keeping possession in my opinion. It's just sound defending.

If you push up 4-5-6 players to attack, but leave your backline (and possibly one midfielder) back somewhere close to your own box you're almost guaranteeing that you won't win a clearance/2nd ball cause only the opponents will be there and you're giving your opponents a lot of space to start their counter attack in, of course there is also the offside issue that you mention and the point that the midfielders won't have anyone available to pass the ball back to when put under pressure.

I would like an example of even just one team that doesn't push their backline up at least about as far as that Stoke team in that picture when attacking into the opponents half or into the final third of that half. Anyone?

If not I'm going to keep my assumption that people are massively misunderstanding this high line defending thing...

 

[africanspurs]

Swansea made it work.

To be honest I think almost any style can work anywhere, as long as you have the right players to do it. If our players are pressing high up the pitch and forcing the opposition in to mistakes/hoofing the ball in behind Kyle Walker we will take that all day long. If it's carried out right, they won't have time to measure a good pass in behind our defence, and the opposition forwards won't have been able to make the run that will see him evade our defence.

I think AVB is a possession man. In the book about him, it talks about how the Porto fans needed to 'accept' the fact that the ball would need to be passed back to the defence a lot, and not to get frustrated or impatient. And once they realised it could work, they did accept it. I hope our fans will not get annoyed if we are playing the ball back and telling our players to get it forward quickly if he does try and play that way.

However, I do think AVB may be a bit more adaptable to certain situations in game than someone that is pure tiki-taka. He says that football is chaotic and that his team needs to have different plans for everything that can occur, so I think he will be able to adjust to different styles but will always try to play with initiative and in an attacking sense.

got to be honest i wasnt aware that swansea played the high line alot

 

[milo]

You really think Modric is going to stay?

Not a chance. I was just responding to a suggested line up.

 

[metalgear]

If not I'm going to keep my assumption that people are massively misunderstanding this high line defending thing...

TBH i'd like to see how porto plays to get a better understanding.

here's what i'm struggling with:
if its a high defensive line only in possession, it isn't unique to porto or barce. liverpool, swansea ... at times we did it too last season, with ledley and kaboul at the back!
if its a high defensive line with lots of pressing, then it sounds a lot like barca!

 

[BrainOfLevy]

got to be honest i wasnt aware that swansea played the high line alot

It was never spoken about but it's almost certain they did - Rodgers loves constant pressing and to do that you can't have a deep line but pressing infront of it, there will be too many gaps as has been mentioned further up. Plus as they are a possession side, I'd say it's much harder to do that with a deep line in possession because the opposition could more easily close down the gaps in Swansea's half and force them to punt it long. You have to keep moving up when in possession if you want to keep hold of it like they did and they must of - because it was working for them.

I think everyone went on about AVB's high line because Terry is a big name player in that team and therefore it brings it to the attention more when it doesn't work. But his strategy isn't high line and that's that, it's pressing and pressing comes with a high line IMO. You wouldn't be in a pressing strategy if your line was deeper, you'd be standing up and then applying pressure in a certain area. But wanting most possession means winning the ball as quickly as possible, which means pressing high.

It's just Swansea had quick players like Caulker in their back line and also guys who were given the confidence to play the ball under pressure, so it worked for them and no-one was saying Rodgers was mad for playing a style that wouldn't work in this league. To be honest though it's the whole team that needs to be suited. The defenders may be suited but if the midfielders and attackers aren't pressing when not in possession, and if they aren't comfortable receiving the ball in tight spaces under pressure when in possession then it goes to pot - the defender could pass the ball into a tight midfield area expecting the midfielder to be able to take it, turn and initiate a move, but if that midfielder can't do it, or is simply more inclined to play direct, they could lose the ball quickly, then the quick ball over the top becomes a problem as the defence have pushed up and that's where it looks like the high line is the issue.

But it's not the high line that would be the problem in that example, or that even the defenders weren't suited, it's that the midfielder lost the ball when the defenders were pushing up. But to make a possession game work, the defenders have to push up. It's imperitive.

 

[Shropshire Yid]

This image is from the Peter Crouch volley goal for Stoke against City (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpo34w_peter-crouch-amazing-goal-x-man-city_sport)

This is as the camera is panning left to track a goal kick punted up field by Stoke. This is at 0-0 against City so it's unlikely Stoke were in all out attack mode. Yet their defenders are 10 yards from the half way line and still walking forwards.

You don't see people going on about how Stoke play a high line defensively though! I've given the example before about Cahill's sending off against us, he was the last (or 2nd last) defender and almost at the half way line. Yet you don't see people going on about how Bolton play a high line...

All teams play a relatively high line in possession as soon as the opponents are pushed back one way or the other. To talk about AVB's high line defending when talking about situations when we have possession still makes no sense to me. Does anyone have any example of teams that play a deep line with their defenders when they are attacking into the opposing half? It sounds like the definition of having a team that is stretched. Might happen sometimes towards the end of games when players are very tired or when one team is only attacking on the break with a couple of players and the rest stay in position. But as an overall strategy? I would like to hear some examples...

Personally this is a bad example in my eyes, any team would push out on a goal kick, it doesnt show or prove anything. To show a high defensive line (without the ball) you need to show a team in possession and not on your own goal kick.
Last season my tactic was to play deep out of possession and play on counter attack, but I would get as high as stoke are on a goal kick to try and squeeze them game and win knock downs.

This then goes onto the discussion of the sweeper keeper lol

 

[BrainOfLevy]

TBH i'd like to see how porto plays to get a better understanding.

here's what i'm struggling with:
if its a high defensive line only in possession, it isn't unique to porto or barce. liverpool, swansea ... at times we did it too last season, with ledley and kaboul at the back!
if its a high defensive line with lots of pressing, then it sounds a lot like barca!

Us vs Swansea at The Lane last season was us playing a high line, lots of pressing sort of game. I don't think we played it for possession ourselves, because we moved it quickly, but we played it to stop Swansea having possession themselves. So right there is an example of us 'playing the high line'. It's not a tactic that AVB insists on using that absolutely cannot work in this league - we even played it against a team that had pacey guys like Routledge and Sinclair ready to spring us on the break but because we stopped Swansea giving them decent service it didn't matter that we played a high line and they were quick.

I'd say we also played the high line when in possession a lot of times under Jol, particularly when we had Carrick.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Infact 'high line when in possession' is a stupid phrase, I shouldn't have used that. All teams will do it if they intend to score at some point. Unless they play purely on the break for 90 minutes, which rarely happens unless you're Chelsea or a complete underdog vs a powerhouse.

It's more about when not in possession. If you can press well enough, you force the opposition to give the ball away so they don't have an opportunity to find a team-mate. If you don't press well enough, you give them gaps to play through and in behind. But a high line definitely can work in this league, and also I think if you are a possession team you will be playing a high line especially with the ball as well.

 

[Shropshire Yid]

A good example of a high line and getting roasted is Bale V Maicon......

 

[NWND]

I wouldn't get too hung up on the high line. All it really means is we press the opposition at every opportunity, very much like Man Utd have done for years and Spain/Barca do. The closer to goal you win the ball and the faster you win the ball back after losing it the more time you have on the ball and the more opportunity to hurt the opposition you have. That's why AVB prefers a 4-3-3. If you have 3 forward players, you can pressurise a back 4 far more easily.

That said the 4-3-3 isn't too dissimilar to Redknapp's formation, where Lennon, Bale and Adebayor were all high up the pitch. As someone mentioned above we effectively saw what AVB's style is like under Redknapp versus Swansea.

Where it all went wrong at Chelsea was that they just didn't have the players in every position with stamina and/or pace to press all over the pitch, so gaps would appear, the opposition would get time on the ball they should have had and their lack of pace at the back exposed them to counter attacks if either the pressing didn't come off or if they lost possession when pushing high up the pitch.

Fact is though they still had this weakness under Roberto Di Matteo. They were highly lucky to win the Champions League, their best results obviously being v Barca and Munich in a backs-to-the wall everyone behind the ball sitting deep performance where their lack of pace at the back couldn't possibly be exposed.

In the league you can't progress with that tactic as there is only so many games you will win allowing quality opposition so much time on the ball. When they did come out and attack teams we saw even under Di Matteo the frailties in the squad brutally exposed, being very lucky not to be beaten by us at Stamford Bridge, losing 2-0 to Saudi Sportswashing Machine at the Bridge and getting hammered by Liverpool at Anfield, where Terry was completely exposed.

I don't think AVB will lead us to adopt any revolutionary changes from Redknapp era. I think we will just be encouraged to press more away form home and take the game to opponents more. I also think we will see Bale/Lennon/VDV whoever else is playing wide/upfront push higher up.

I think we will have 3 hard working players in midfield who will press and chase. Parker and Sandro are ideal for this and apparently Sigurdsson is too. I expect us to try and bring in someone like Moutinho if Modric leaves who will also get stuck in, but also will keep the possession ticking over and feed the forward players pushed higher up the pitch.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

All this high line talk, one thing is yet to get mentioned. Passing options. The whole sytem (of both pushing up and pressing) is built upon the ball holder having passing options, and its particularly crucial when said ball holder is under pressure.

This is something I feel we were particularly poor at last season (and as a general trait also), someone would get the ball, and no one would move into space or make a run to be released. Players would just stand 5 yards in front getting marked. This is much the reason why Modric is so essential to us, he is able to work around that - create his own space/options and move the team forward.

If a defender gets the ball in a high position it is essential he has a simple pass to make - ideally not back to the keeper. In turn, if it is to the keeper he HAS to have an easy ball to play.

 

[metalgear]

A good example of a high line and getting roasted is Bale V Maicon......

now this is us sitting back and allowing the other team to have a high defensive line - TO DEVASTATING EFFECT!

last season, the biggest fault of the team was not knowing when to sit back or draw the opponents out, so that we can get our ferraris on the wings to go into 5th gear.

i hope to see more of bale at full tilt next season... its a beautiful thing!

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Thats something AVB has spoken about in the past, refers to it as "provoking" the opponent. Tempting them with the ball to get them to move and create space...

 

[metalgear]

so from OUR perspective, it seems less relevant to talk about the high defensive line (where there is little change) but more about the pressing in a more forwards area of the pitch, with more bodies up in front.

all that pressing and accurate passing will surely require a fitter team than last season. oh the boys are going to have fun

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I dont feel the team were unfit last season? They seemed fine to me. And at times under Redknapp (though not often enough) our pressing and hunting of the ball was incredible - it left us unplayable.

I am pretty convinced we wont be changing as significantly as many believe - I think we will be more organised, more drilled - which means more consistent. The biggest change will be in making the players move to create more options around the ball holder, and also what to do when we are dominating posession but can break through

 

[braineclipse]

Personally this is a bad example in my eyes, any team would push out on a goal kick, it doesnt show or prove anything. To show a high defensive line (without the ball) you need to show a team in possession and not on your own goal kick.
Last season my tactic was to play deep out of possession and play on counter attack, but I would get as high as stoke are on a goal kick to try and squeeze them game and win knock downs.

This then goes onto the discussion of the sweeper keeper lol

Did read what I said about the Cahill sending off against Bolton?

Yes, any team pushes out on goal kicks if they hoof it. And just about any team pushes their defenders out when they attack and the ball goes well into the opposing half/final third...

 

[Jimmy-g]

Its all about possesion to me, compress the play you have more players in support of the man with the ball, also you are nearer the ball if you lose it to win it back, the players in front of the ball need good movement to enable passes to be threaded, its exactly the way Barca play.