Kingdawson
Banned
Nayim don't you think AVB can tweak his formation so Bale is the support striker type 'winger' on the left hand side (so basically the Hulk role) and Azza is the hog the touchline winger on the right?
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AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread
- Thread starter BAE
- Start date
Nayim don't you think AVB can tweak his formation so Bale is the support striker type 'winger' on the left hand side (so basically the Hulk role) and Azza is the hog the touchline winger on the right?
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I think Huddlestone could do a fantastic job at the base of midfield just as he did the year we first finished 4th (how quickly people forget, I thought absence was supposed to make the heart grow fonder!)
Rossi22
Pedro Mendes
Well I watched Oscar again last night and he played as a right forward whilst drifting centrally and scored a very nice goal, basically everything you've just said we need above.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I do, its certainly an option - but even in that position Lennon will need to have a change in attitude to be more positive and aggressive in attack.
While we will have someone like Sigurdsson making runs from midfield we will have only 1 striker and will need our wingers/wide forwards to really contribute to attacking play.
Rossi22
Pedro Mendes
Would love to see that, although as you've said a Friedel replacement wouldn't go amiss.
Kingdawson
Banned
No.
I saw the same game and yes he scored a nice goal but the guy wasn't getting involved in general play much at all. D'Allesandro was far better yesterday and besides if that game is anything to go by...well then the Brazilian League is an utter joke.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
The Lennon situation is going to be interesting.
In AVB's formation, the guy on the right of the 3 is usually the one that will cut in and contribute more goals. This doesn't suit Lennon. Bale on the left could keep the width, or they could tweak it so that Bale is the one cutting in and Lennon is the width-keeper, and even though Bale has shown (like against Chelsea in 09/10) he can cut in from the left and score, I think in general it works much better if he's cutting in to shoot and have the natural angle to do so with his stronger foot, meaning he would be better on the right. I really think he would be utterly devastating in that position.
But then it begs the question, what happens with Lennon? If Bale is played as the width-keeper on the left, Lennon would need to be the goal getter on the right. Maybe we could swap them, so that Bale cuts in from the right and Lennon keeps the width on the left? From how it seems, the width position is to stretch teams and therefore it's the starting position that's important. So Lennon could start hugging the touch line on the left, and then cut in, potentially getting goals himself. It may be that because the starting position is important, the formation doesn't require someone to get to the byline and cross, it just requires someone capable of holding the width and being an outlet. If we had the play on the right, with Bale cutting in, Walker on the overlap, Siggy supporting and Ade looking for the ball in the box, and Lennon is holding his position in the left, if we could switch the ball to him quickly he would probably get a fair amount of one on one opportunities to skin his man, cut in and score himself.
But if he isn't intended to be used like that, I do wonder how he will work. If he's the width keeper on the right, Bale could need to cut in from the left, which he can do but I feel he wouldn't have the angle to be totally effective. Maybe we will be able to tweak it in a lot of different ways this season. Occasionally Lennon is the width keeper on the right, and Bale cuts in from the left, occasionally they are swapped, and occasionally maybe we have an Oscar or even a GDS (who has said he will happily stay with us if no offers come in...I think he's either spoken to AVB or realised he could be effective in his system) coming from the right, and Bale as a width keeper on the left.
In AVB's formation, the guy on the right of the 3 is usually the one that will cut in and contribute more goals. This doesn't suit Lennon. Bale on the left could keep the width, or they could tweak it so that Bale is the one cutting in and Lennon is the width-keeper, and even though Bale has shown (like against Chelsea in 09/10) he can cut in from the left and score, I think in general it works much better if he's cutting in to shoot and have the natural angle to do so with his stronger foot, meaning he would be better on the right. I really think he would be utterly devastating in that position.
But then it begs the question, what happens with Lennon? If Bale is played as the width-keeper on the left, Lennon would need to be the goal getter on the right. Maybe we could swap them, so that Bale cuts in from the right and Lennon keeps the width on the left? From how it seems, the width position is to stretch teams and therefore it's the starting position that's important. So Lennon could start hugging the touch line on the left, and then cut in, potentially getting goals himself. It may be that because the starting position is important, the formation doesn't require someone to get to the byline and cross, it just requires someone capable of holding the width and being an outlet. If we had the play on the right, with Bale cutting in, Walker on the overlap, Siggy supporting and Ade looking for the ball in the box, and Lennon is holding his position in the left, if we could switch the ball to him quickly he would probably get a fair amount of one on one opportunities to skin his man, cut in and score himself.
But if he isn't intended to be used like that, I do wonder how he will work. If he's the width keeper on the right, Bale could need to cut in from the left, which he can do but I feel he wouldn't have the angle to be totally effective. Maybe we will be able to tweak it in a lot of different ways this season. Occasionally Lennon is the width keeper on the right, and Bale cuts in from the left, occasionally they are swapped, and occasionally maybe we have an Oscar or even a GDS (who has said he will happily stay with us if no offers come in...I think he's either spoken to AVB or realised he could be effective in his system) coming from the right, and Bale as a width keeper on the left.
Spursalot
Jimmy McCormick
Is possibly one of the key issues. Due to it I think we're far more likely to see Walker on the overlap than we are to see BAE doing it. Which would mean the right hand side would be bale cutting in, etc, etc.
But that's a pretty decent analysis of it really. Nice post.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Also maybe we work it so we have 4 options. Bale as a width provider on the left, and GDS/Sturridge if we get him coming in from the right. Or, if Bale is out, Defoe if we keep him cutting in from the left, and Lennon keeping the width on the right, with BAE getting up to support more and Walker being a touch more disciplined.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
I think the key to the difference there was that in that set-up, a 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2, VDV starts higher and is supposed to be the outlet, and Bale when on the right and whoever was on the left was supposed to provide for him. I remember the Everton game, Bale on the right basically playing as an orthodox winger, trying to get to the byline to cross for the box. He even did that ridiculous cross with the outside of his left foot on the right hand side a couple of times and it never got anywhere near one of our players. I think the set up there was all wrong if we were looking to get the best out of Bale.
But if it's a 4-3-3 and Bale is one of the top 3, he will actually start higher than whoever the central attacking midfielder is. I think Rafa will go, and it will be Sig arriving later in the box from deep. So it won't be Bale's job to provide and get the ball into VDV or into the box, it will be the job of Sig, Sandro and Modric (for example) to release Bale and get him one on one opportunities or space to shoot. Bale will start higher up the pitch and whether that's right or left he's going to be far more effective in that system IMO, than the 4-4-1-1 where he was on the right.
Even though he's on the right in the 4-3-3 just like he was in a 4-4-1-1, and although they look like really similar formations and roles, I think they are actually really different. It will just be funny to see if the fans start telling AVB that Bale 'plays on the right', and whether they keep it up if Bale has scored say 6 or 7 goals coming from that position by October.
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
cant disagree with any of this to be fair. the only only thing i would challenge is that bale did try to either come infield or roam infield from the right as much as the left to allow walker the overlap. the whole bale on the right thing was what was getting people's backs up, not mine though, but alot of people. when he got moved to the left people claimed that it was the correct move...rather than saying that "just start him higher than VDV"
how about Bales movement infield fro the left AND right, which was criticised by many? why were people on harry's case for that?
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Not sure why they were on Harry's case for that, all I would say is that if he comes infield he's basically being asked to thread an eye of the needle through ball to Rafa/Ade, or he's being asked to use his pace to run at teams through the middle like he did at Norwich. Both of those things are easily nullified (and the threading of passes isn't Bale's strength anyway) by teams sitting narrow and deep against us, so all Bale achieves is congesting the spaces that we try to play in. And if he comes infield, his outlets are Rafa, Ade, and maybe Walker on the overlap.
If he starts higher, he's not being asked to try and provide passes for only a couple of players that will be tightly marked and are finding it tough to find space, and he's not going to be asked to run into space when the opposition decide to sit narrow and deep. He's basically already going to be up there. It's going to be Modric/Moutinho/Oscar/whoever trying to release him early, and it's not so easily nullified. Sit deep, and we will either let Bale shoot from range, or you're going to be inviting Modric/Moutinho/Oscar/whoever to start playing intricate football in and around your box and it's going to be dangerous. Get at us, and we are going to release Bale quickly because he's already going to be up there and he'll have space to run into.
So even though he did try and come inside in the 4-4-1-1, he didn't have the options ahead of him to make the movement worthwhile. And it also wasn't his strength. And if we start Bale too deep, it's all too easily nullified by the opposition. 4-3-3, and that all changes IMO.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Dont forget this was at a time when we didnt have Lennon and the only real width in the team was provided by Bale. Or not, as it worked out with him allowed to roam...
liquid_football
Jamie Redknapp
I think the most important thing hasen't been mentioned here yet,or atleast I havent seen it.
Most of our players have never ever played in a proper 433 system week in,week out.They will need alot of time adjusting to the new formation,their new roles and what is expected of them.We can only really speculate how someone will perform,but the sad truth is we can't know for sure before we start the season.We have so far played the simplest football possible,with 90% of our attacks coming down the wings through Bale and Lennon.
This will be a major transition for the team and to be honest,I m quite skeptical about it.The good thing is that AvB has the full summer to prepare the team and some important signings have already been made.One thing is for sure,next season will be really interesting!
Most of our players have never ever played in a proper 433 system week in,week out.They will need alot of time adjusting to the new formation,their new roles and what is expected of them.We can only really speculate how someone will perform,but the sad truth is we can't know for sure before we start the season.We have so far played the simplest football possible,with 90% of our attacks coming down the wings through Bale and Lennon.
This will be a major transition for the team and to be honest,I m quite skeptical about it.The good thing is that AvB has the full summer to prepare the team and some important signings have already been made.One thing is for sure,next season will be really interesting!
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
The biggest difference between Bale on the right in a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 and in a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 is for me their starting positions when attacking. Too often Bale was picking the ball up around the half way line as was easily shown outside by the opponents. From the right he will be more of a goal threat than from the left I think, but he needs to get closer to the goal more often, others will have to take care of the buildup play and creating chances. He would also need to improve on some aspects of his game and get more used to that role of course.
was thinking about Swansea's formation last year and it hit me... who was their CDM? do you really need one??
so i think i've got it.
what about:
Lennon ------ Ade ------- Bale
-------- Sigg ------ VDV -------
------------- Modric ------------
Benoit - Verts - Kaboul - Walker
------------- Friedel -------------
only problem is i love Sandro as much as the next man.
so i think i've got it.
what about:
Lennon ------ Ade ------- Bale
-------- Sigg ------ VDV -------
------------- Modric ------------
Benoit - Verts - Kaboul - Walker
------------- Friedel -------------
only problem is i love Sandro as much as the next man.
milo
Jack L. Jones
That team would get ripped to shreds by any half decent premiership team
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
They didnt have one. Saw an interview with Rodgers, basically he recognised none of his player were blood and guts tacklers, so instead they worked on closing down passing angles, interception and forcing mistakes through pressing.
So basically workrate replaced a DM.