Antonio Conte - officially NOT the coach of THFC

[parklane1]

Due to a large part, not to the manager, but because we have arguably the best striker in the world playing for us. Without Kane, I am sure we would be mid table this season. The manager's tactics have reduced Son to a shadow of his former self and Richalison hasn't had a look in.

Take away the best player in any team and you would probably see a drop in performance. Richarlson has had a few injurys and Son as just not been the player he has been in previous seasons. We can all use excuses.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

It's standard fare, the reasons things go wrong is because the players aren't connecting with what the manager is doing, and if the results don't match, it becomes self fulfilling, i.e. I don't understand why this guy is asking me to do this, and result doesn't work out .. see? i told you so

Again, not buying in 100%, but the commentary below is horrendous, if I knew my boss was paid £13.5M/yr and he asked me to solve his problems?

Towards the end of January, Antonio Conte gathered his Tottenham players at the club's Enfield HQ for a heart-to-heart. The Italian wanted to get to the bottom of the team's run of one Premier League win in five, including three damaging defeats. As the final player arrived, Conte walked out - telling his players he wanted them to find the solution to their wretched form. Among the squad, there was a sense that performances and results had been hampered by Conte's rigid and defensive tactics. When senior players reported back to Conte after the crisis talks, they pleaded with him to release the shackles and be more expansive in their attacking play.

I think your comment about connecting with the players nails it but if nobody can connect with them, maybe they're a tough crowd. Again, it's the 90s Spurs fan in me talking but I really don't like the idea that a group of players can get manager after manager sacked without any consequence whatsoever. I'd hoped Levy was so fond of Mourinho he'd back him over the players when they downed tools but it's quite obvious that it's not working.

As for the last of your post, I don't know if it's an age or a cultural thing, but it's quite common old-school 80s-early-90s management. Poor man's shock therapy. Sounds like something Lobanovsky or Trapattoni would do. It's meant to make them understand a) you're not going to change and b) they have to take responsibility to own up to their own shortcomings. There are plenty of variations on that theme. In the late 90s, Luis Fernandez, when he was managing PSG, had his first-team players play a practice match without opposition, when he was unhappy about a result.

If it did happen, it shows Conte felt the players didn't share is passion and dedication more than anything else. It also shows he didn't understand the mindset of his players or that he was reluctant to adapt to his players.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Do you know of any other top manager being continuously questioned about cups?

No, because top managers actaully win them after a while, as arguably Poch could/should have. So when he says "Cups don't matter" etc he a) invites more attention when they are not won and b) his players who ARE ambitous and also loyal to follow his methods (which are said to be some of the most physically demanding around) start to question why the need to give that extra 5-10% in training and in games if "Cups are only for egos". We saw the drop off from those comments towards the end of his tenure. I and others did say at the time it was a misstep alomg with us not buying any players in summer 2018.

And did we have any other manager that had us in the top performing teams in the league for 4 years straight? And why is this last part important? Because it adds context to what Poch said: look at the consistent high performance of the team and don't focus on the fact it went out of a competition where luck plays a big part. (and we did get to two semis and a final, by the way)

If Poch or any other manager is going to get praise and lauded as a top manager, then they are eventually going to be judged by the same standards; you can't have it both ways, see Jose, Conte with us recently.

And one more thing: people are hung up on the cups, whereas what they should be hung up on is the team performing consistently at a high level. You do that and you'll win cups eventually. If de Zerbi stays at Brighton for another 2-3 years and has them regularly in the top 6, do you think he'll be getting questions about not winning a cup? Of course he won't. But with Spurs, it's a fudging obsession.

Come on; There is a big bleeping difference to the status of Brighton and Spurs FFS. Have Brighton ever actually won a trophy before? Meanwhile, Spurs:
a) were one of the intial 'big 5' instrumkental in pushing for the creation of the PL (for good or bad)
b) until recently with the doped-up clubs ammassing trophies had the 5th biggest number of trophies in English football (Chelski only in the last two years have overtaken us for example, ditto Emirates Marketing Project)
c) until 2010, Spurs had won at least one trophy in every decade since 1950. It is not easy to win a trophy. Certainly a league title of CL (which we have only two in our whole history). But at least one trophy in every decade between 1950 to 2010; that's a form of consistency that is hard for most clubs to replicate, hence why we have such a large fanbase despite the large fallow years and hence why this current 16 year fallow period is something that grates some of our older fans when they are told "we've never had it so good"; i guess it depends on what is ultimately the point of following Spurs i guess.

My main point is, at some point the top managers and top clubs have their status validated by winning things. Poch with us is/was no different

 

[Grays_1890]

It may be down to meeting consumers demands but I find little match reporting in the articles I've read over the last decade, it's mainly about individuals or club status, the whole world appear to be focused on personality rather than facts.

I think that's spot on

Sky has to sell, and what sells better than controversy?

Transfer deadline day is almost more important than the game these days, and it follows a thirst from fans to want new and shiny rather than stick and develop regardless of the trade off. So how do you do it, put out loads of rumours, disrupt and then focus on the Windows.

I said before that the foreign press and managers have commented before about our obsession with deadline day and the winter window, that's just an example but that's where the games at...its about controversy, speculation and memes

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[Raziel]

I think your comment about connecting with the players nails it but if nobody can connect with them, maybe they're a tough crowd. Again, it's the 90s Spurs fan in me talking but I really don't like the idea that a group of players can get manager after manager sacked without any consequence whatsoever. I'd hoped Levy was so fond of Mourinho he'd back him over the players when they downed tools but it's quite obvious that it's not working.

As for the last of your post, I don't know if it's an age or a cultural thing, but it's quite common old-school 80s-early-90s management. Poor man's shock therapy. Sounds like something Lobanovsky or Trapattoni would do. It's meant to make them understand a) you're not going to change and b) they have to take responsibility to own up to their own shortcomings. There are plenty of variations on that theme. In the late 90s, Luis Fernandez, when he was managing PSG, had his first-team players play a practice match without opposition, when he was unhappy about a result.

If it did happen, it shows Conte felt the players didn't share is passion and dedication more than anything else. It also shows he didn't understand the mindset of his players or that he was reluctant to adapt to his players.

I don't disagree, but it combined with the connection point shows a lack of self awareness in Conte.

I remember the old school way, but I also manage quite a few of the younger generation (highly skilled, highly paid), and they require a different approach, they expect to have different conversations, they complain about truly mundane brick and they expect a lot of emotional intelligence. While I joke about it with colleagues, we all have (years ago) adapted our management style to suit. Conte not getting there is similar to Jose, the players will connect for a while, reputation and the new knowledge will help but when you just don't adapt, it will run aground.

 

[Grays_1890]

No, because top managers actaully win them after a while, as arguably Poch could/should have. So when he says "Cups don't matter" etc he a) invites more attention when they are not won and b) his players who ARE ambitous and also loyal to follow his methods (which are said to be some of the most physically demanding around) start to question why the need to give that extra 5-10% in training and in games if "Cups are only for egos". We saw the drop off from those comments towards the end of his tenure. I and others did say at the time it was a misstep alomg with us not buying any players in summer 2018.



If Poch or any other manager is going to get praise and lauded as a top manager, then they are eventually going to be judged by the same standards; you can't have it both ways, see Jose, Conte with us recently.



Come on; There is a big bleeping difference to the status of Brighton and Spurs FFS. Have Brighton ever actually won a trophy before? Meanwhile, Spurs:
a) were one of the intial 'big 5' instrumkental in pushing for the creation of the PL (for good or bad)
b) until recently with the doped-up clubs ammassing trophies had the 5th biggest number of trophies in English football (Chelski only in the last two years have overtaken us for example, ditto Emirates Marketing Project)
c) until 2010, Spurs had won at least one trophy in every decade since 1950. It is not easy to win a trophy. Certainly a league title of CL (which we have only two in our whole history). But at least one trophy in every decade between 1950 to 2010; that's a form of consistency that is hard for most clubs to replicate, hence why we have such a large fanbase despite the large fallow years and hence why this current 16 year fallow period is something that grates some of our older fans when they are told "we've never had it so good"; i guess it depends on what is ultimately the point of following Spurs i guess.

My main point is, at some point the top managers and top clubs have their status validated by winning things. Poch with us is/was no different

Let's also get it right, we were also considered a cup team only in the last 60 odd years coming close in 87 as the only time in my Spurs existence that we came close.

I love Cups and I want to win things but there is no getting away from the fact that in the last 20 years the whole quality of Spurs have been dragged up a level and as I stated on another thread, we finish higher, play in Europe's most competitive trophy and go deeper more often un cups than any time in our history....the fact we don't get over the line we can debate of course but from the dour 90s of watching us nearly go out of business and nearly relegated to what we are ad a club now is bigger than missing out on our average one cup per 10 years....others will disagree and I think that's short sighted but anyone that thinks our prospects were greater finishing 14th but winning a LC because its a cup are lying to themselves IMO

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[Robspur12]

Take away the best player in any team and you would probably see a drop in performance. Richarlson has had a few injurys and Son as just not been the player he has been in previous seasons. We can all use excuses.

Indeed that's true. But the point I was making was that if you are looking for a reason why we are the third highest scorers in the league, then the fact that we have a world class goal scorer is more relevant than the manager's tactics; tactics which have effectively stifled the other the forwards.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Let's also get it right, we were also considered a cup team only in the last 60 odd years coming close in 87 as the only time in my Spurs existence that we came close.

I love Cups and I want to win things but there is no getting away from the fact that in the last 20 years the whole quality of Spurs have been dragged up a level and as I stated on another thread, we finish higher, play in Europe's most competitive trophy and go deeper more often un cups than any time in our history....the fact we don't get over the line we can debate of course but from the dour 90s of watching us nearly go out of business and nearly relegated to what we are ad a club now is bigger than missing out on our average one cup per 10 years....others will disagree and I think that's short sighted but anyone that thinks our prospects were greater finishing 14th but winning a LC because its a cup are lying to themselves IMO

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I certainly enjoy watching us now compared to the 90s...but that "look back to the 90s when we were REALLY brick" excuse for our continued failures in getting over the line can only go so far.
Many players who we might want to play for us certainly won't care about how brick we were in the 90s...

 

[parklane1]

Indeed that's true. But the point I was making was that if you are looking for a reason why we are the third highest scorers in the league, then the fact that we have a world class goal scorer is more relevant than the manager's tactics; tactics which have effectively stifled the other the forwards.

Of course i agree that Kane is one of the reasons, like the best players at any clubs who drive their team forwards. Not defending Conte in the slightest but there is more to it then just one player.

 

[Grays_1890]

I certainly enjoy watching us now compared to the 90s...but that "look back to the 90s when we were REALLY brick" excuse for our continued failures in getting over the line can only go so far.
Many players who we might want to play for us certainly won't care about how brick we were in the 90s...

That's not the reason I mention the 90s, it's how far behind the elite we were and the ground we had to make up on them which is important about the 90s. Empires like United and Liverpool who dominated the game, Arsenal joining the mix, teams we play up with now and compete with and European giants. If people can't look at the bigger picture and the pains it took to get from there to now or applaud the job done to do so whilst forgoing their thirst for trophies, then I question their grasp of how far behind those teams we were

And as I say, it wasn't just the 90s, we never had this level stature in the league more consistently than we do now...in any period in the history

This is about the bigger picture of growth

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[glorygloryeze]

That's not the reason I mention the 90s, it's how far behind the elite we were and the ground we had to make up on them which is important about the 90s. Empires like United and Liverpool who dominated the game, Arsenal joining the mix, teams we play up with now and compete with and European giants. If people can't look at the bigger picture and the pains it took to get from there to now or applaud the job done to do so whilst forgoing their thirst for trophies, then I question their grasp of how far behind those teams we were

And as I say, it wasn't just the 90s, we never had this level stature in the league more consistently than we do now...in any period in the history

This is about the bigger picture of growth

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Yes, i'm aware of how far behind those clubs we WERE and certainly know how we've grown.
But as i say, at what point do you say ok, we SHOULD be competing with those guys now in terms of getting over the line re trophies now?
What is the point of the stadium upgrade if it's to continue to lose limply in FA and League cup ties to the likes of Sheffield Utd, Forest, Middlesbrough, Palace, Everton, West Ham etc?
If we were always getting to semi-finals and losing to the likes of United/doped clubs then fair enough.
Even when Arsenal have been pants and out of the top European competition they've been able to get over the line...was that due to their previous dominance of the PL in the 90s and naughties on and off the field?

People can grasp how we have grown as a club financially but also can legitimately ask why we keep stumbling before the finish line. We have won trophies when we've been in worse states after all...

 

[Grays_1890]

Yes, i'm aware of how far behind those clubs we WERE and certainly know how we've grown.
But as i say, at what point do you say ok, we SHOULD be competing with those guys now in terms of getting over the line re trophies now?
What is the point of the stadium upgrade if it's to continue to lose limply in FA and League cup ties to the likes of Sheffield Utd, Forest, Middlesbrough, Palace, Everton, West Ham etc?
If we were always getting to semi-finals and losing to the likes of United/doped clubs then fair enough.
Even when Arsenal have been pants and out of the top European competition they've been able to get over the line...was that due to their previous dominance of the PL in the 90s and naughties on and off the field?

People can grasp how we have grown as a club financially but also can legitimately ask why we keep stumbling before the finish line. We have trophies when we've been in worse states after all...

20 to 30 years behind those clubs maybe more so it's a trade off to say you might forgo the one trophy in 10 years to be a bigger and better club, more often, if people don't like that trade off than so be it but if you look with reasonable eyes and expectations, I don't personally see it as a big ask.

And as I said previously, 13 finals and semi finals in as many years under Enic, its not just the clubs ambitions that's been a stumbling bloke, people might wanna blame them and again so be it, but there is more to winning big games and I don't point to a boardroom for a teams failure to get over the line TBH.

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[glorygloryeze]

20 to 30 years behind those clubs maybe more so it's a trade off to say you might forgo the one trophy in 10 years to be a bigger and better club, more often, if people don't like that trade off than so be it but if you look with reasonable eyes and expectations, I don't personally see it as a big ask.

And as I said previously, 13 finals and semi finals in as many years under Enic, its not just the clubs ambitions that's been a stumbling bloke, people might wanna blame them and again so be it, but there is more to winning big games and I don't point to a boardroom for a teams failure to get over the line TBH.

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I certainly can't blame Levy/ENIC for a player's brainfart in a semi-final/final that's for sure....
However, they do set the tone and culture of the club and that itself leads to manager comments about bravery, "cups just being for egos" etc

Oh well, hopefully we get some kind of 'winning culture' woven into the fabric of our club somehow in the next couple of years (otherwise we become..Everton....)

 

[Grays_1890]

I certainly can't blame Levy/ENIC for a player's brainfart in a semi-final/final that's for sure....
However, they do set the tone and culture of the club and that itself leads to manager comments about bravery, "cups just being for egos" etc

Oh well, hopefully we get some kind of 'winning culture' woven into the fabric of our club somehow in the next couple of years (otherwise we become..Everton....)

Yet we go further and more often in cups than ever before...so hard to level a Poch comment at them when the facts actually translate differently

Owners, whoever they are, with their egos wanna be paraded with trophies under the noses of their peers, that's the nature of big business, people try and separate the two and say big business takes priority, I would argue big business and success are the same thing.

I don't miss the days of 6/7 nil defeats regular, pointless trips to Old Trafford or Anfield or the club laundering money to offshore accounts to pay players loans that nearly send us under, people my herald those days because they came with trophies and alas I loved the trophies, I didn't enjoy the week to week though, in general, I do now...what I don't enjoy the thirsty fans at games calling all and sundry cnuts because they feel entitled (not aimed at anyone on here to be clear) hence my nephew gets to go and has more to enjoy about going to games and not noticing things.





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[glorygloryeze]

Yet we go further and more often in cups than ever before...so hard to level a Poch comment at them when the facts actually translate differently

Owners, whoever they are, with their egos wanna be paraded with trophies under the noses of their peers, that's the nature of big business, people try and separate the two and say big business takes priority, I would argue big business and success are the same thing.

I don't miss the days of 6/7 nil defeats regular, pointless trips to Old Trafford or Anfield or the club laundering money to offshore accounts to pay players loans that nearly send us under, people my herald those days because they came with trophies and alas I loved the trophies, I didn't enjoy the week to week though, in general, I do now...what I don't enjoy the thirsty fans at games calling all and sundry cnuts because they feel entitled (not aimed at anyone on here to be clear) hence my nephew gets to go and has more to enjoy about going to games and not noticing things.





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Not sure we actually do go further in cups these days actually but i'll leave that to Stattos to argue about. We certainly finish higher in the league on average compared to the 90s. You could say we should given our stature etc, but we don't have a GHod given right to do so.

Certainly doing well business wise AND winning should go hand in hand and that's what should be the aim every season and to that end id we fail it should be a 'heroic' failure like our motto "To Dare is To Do". And that should be from the top of the club to the bottom.

 

[Grays_1890]

Not sure we actually do go further in cups these days actually but i'll leave that to Stattos to argue about. We certainly finish higher in the league on average compared to the 90s. You could say we should given our stature etc, but we don't have a GHod given right to do so.

Certainly doing well business wise AND winning should go hand in hand and that's what should be the aim every season and to that end id we fail it should be a 'heroic' failure like our motto "To Dare is To Do". And that should be from the top of the club to the bottom.

At the end of the day, I wanted a better club when I was stood their being routed week in week out and we have one. I get people want success now and yesterday but absolutely none of us know what's in the future but I believe a club that increases its overall quality will increase their chances of longer terms success...

Let's see how that pans out

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[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I’m not sure there’s the same need for match reporting in the way there was even 10 years ago. Now anyone with a smartphone (basically everyone) can see the important moments in a game 10 minutes after the final whistle.

The focus has therefore turned towards comment even in match reports - which, to my mind, makes them a more interesting read anyhow.

I wouldn't know I us my mobile phone as a mobile phone, I just don't get how in a world where everyone wants a 60in plus TV they would want to watch films and football on a tiny screen.

 

[We are Tottenham]

In which opinion would Conte be right in? That we have selfish players? If we did, why didn't he drop them?

Is he right in the opinion that the club is used to mediocrity? Maybe. But what does he mean by mediocrity? If he means that a proper footballing vision and operation behind it is not in place, he would be right. But if that was the case, then what the hell was he doing taking the Spurs job to begin with? For someone with his experience that would be something that would be easy to identify before accepting the job.

Nah, Conte was right because even a broken clock is right twice a day. I'm not saying everything is perfect at the club and that changes aren't needed, but what Conte was pointing out are not it.

Apologies that I cannot be on here and reply to everyones post's.I can,t find the time .besides I'm not the most academic on here.

alekaras you may be right..allthough Conte is a long standing coach,so you would think he understands something.
BTW we have been saying for a while that change's are needed.

You have to admit we do go spurzy at the last moment just when we are about to push on to the next position if its in the League or the cups..yes something needs to change..I cant blame Levy 100% for us not winning things but then again I don't know how the club is run behind the scenes .who buy,s the players etc. I do think any Manager/coach would have to choose who he wants in his Team. Anyway I was actually thinking about a week before conte left..that maybe the players are having it too cosy at Hotspur way! and maybe they should be made to train at Hackney marshes..lol

Can anyone put their finger on why we allways slip up at the last!!??
again is there just a little bit of truth in conte's rant?

 

[Mikey10]

I wouldn't know I us my mobile phone as a mobile phone, I just don't get how in a world where everyone wants a 60in plus TV they would want to watch films and football on a tiny screen.

A reasonable point…which has got nothing to do with the point that I was originally making.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Apologies that I cannot be on here and reply to everyones post's.I can,t find the time .besides I'm not the most academic on here.

alekaras you may be right..allthough Conte is a long standing coach,so you would think he understands something.
BTW we have been saying for a while that change's are needed.

You have to admit we do go spurzy at the last moment just when we are about to push on to the next position if its in the League or the cups..yes something needs to change..I cant blame Levy 100% for us not winning things but then again I don't know how the club is run behind the scenes .who buy,s the players etc. I do think any Manager/coach would have to choose who he wants in his Team. Anyway I was actually thinking about a week before conte left..that maybe the players are having it too cosy at Hotspur way! and maybe they should be made to train at Hackney marshes..lol

Can anyone put their finger on why we allways slip up at the last!!??
again is there just a little bit of truth in conte's rant?

In general we have lost the semi finals and finals to teams who were better than us (usually at the point of the season when their deeper squads give them the advantage).
Only a few times has that not been the case really, most notably when Redknapp's Spurs team lost to Portsmouth (where we were largely just rather unlucky) and perhaps also Hoddle's Spurs team against Blackburn in the 2001/02 League Cup final. Though, even then, Spurs and Blackburn were 9th and 10th in the Premier League that season so probably quite evenly matched. The other annoying one was the League cup final against Emirates Marketing Project in 2020/21, not because we were anything like favourites but because Mourinho should've been given the chance to do the one thing he has actually proven he is damned good at doing (winning finals).