Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach

[Gazza Dazzla]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Harry was taking over from a 2 points in 8 games team tbf, AVB took over a team that finished 4th, albeit staggering over the line and then losing 3 of its best players (Rafa self inflicted, granted). Harry's job at the start was far tougher.

 

[THFC6061]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Harry was taking over from a 2 points in 8 games team tbf, AVB took over a team that finished 4th, albeit staggering over the line and then losing 3 of its best players (Rafa self inflicted, granted). Harry's job at the start was far tougher.

But the players were the same for Harry as they were for Ramos, it was just that Ramos didn't have a clue what to do with them.

 

[Cochise]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I remember watching our pre season under Ramos and loving it. Fullbacks being encouraged to run past the wingers etc. I remember watching Gunther making a run whilst play got condensed in midfield with the other teams left back getting sucked in and a ball just being passed into their back left area. Gunther ran on and crossed for Bent to tap in. I thought we were gonna smash some teams that year lol. Think we beat Roma 5-1 in our last pre season friendly too.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

But the players were the same for Harry as they were for Ramos, it was just that Ramos didn't have a clue what to do with them.

Some (chemically imbalanced) people believe Ramos would have eventually gotten the same results as HR, might have taken 10 years but he would have done it :ross:

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Some (chemically imbalanced) people believe Ramos would have eventually gotten the same results as HR, might have taken 10 years but he would have done it :ross:

I think it would have been interesting to see what he could have done if given the time. It would have taken a ridiculous amount of patience and a clear demonstration to the players that as long as the club avoided relegation, this was the man they were going to have to listen to. Then we'd see how his methods turned out.

Basically I'd love a 'Spanish Too' book written about Ramos just to see what his ideas were exactly. Clive Allen said he had some great ideas but the players just didn't take them in. To be honest I think most managers have a certain level of aptitude, and a Ramos type character is good for a club like ours to get in on before anyone else to hopefully capitalise on the arbitrage between his new ideas being ahead of their time and other more old school managers failing to adapt to them. It's all about getting a manager with the right ideas, at the right time, for the right players at the right club. And to be fair to AVB I think the fact that he was capable of getting results at the same time as implementing new ideas shows he did better than Ramos.

Still though, it would have been interesting to see how we turned out had we backed Ramos all season. Not saying it would have been anything more than a disaster but if our club fancied giving it a whirl, I would have gone along for the ride.

 

[Modric THFC]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

i think i see the issue now

personally speaking IMO not all play the same and not all play the way it seems we are headed

there is quite frankly very little link between how we play and how gooners play as far as system / style....formation might have some similarities to some of the older gooner teams under arsene but we do not play anything like arsenal

we dont play like barcelona either, am not accounting for quality and level of our personell...but even in the style we play..it isnt even close to those


we do however share a similar style to spain national side and the entire italian league (generalised and stereotyping here for italy)

if you didnt see the lyon side of the late 90s and early 2000 i think you missed out on some great footballers and football mate...but we dont play like them either ...but i am more inclined to believe that the lyon team is where we are headed...mixed in with a bit of the ajax of the mid ninties but we need at least 2 or 3 playmakers in the side for that

We are set up and play pretty much identically to Benitez's Valencia side that won La Liga in 2001/02 with 51 goals.

 

[Rorschach]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Is that Batman?

looks more like robocop....

or at a stretch the Owlman from the reverse earth

Halo?

 

[braineclipse]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

But the players were the same for Harry as they were for Ramos, it was just that Ramos didn't have a clue what to do with them.

Redknapp spent £40-45m in the first January transfer window after taking over on players like Palacios, Defoe and Keane. He then went on to spend the following summer on players like Crouch, Kaboul, Kranjcar and the Kyles. In addition to that players like Modric had some time to adjust and then really started performing a while into Redknapp's reign. To say that the players were the same seems way off.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying Ramos would have gotten it right in the end, nor am I saying that it wasn't at least partly his fault that the squad was unbalanced. Not taking credit away from Redknapp either, some of those signings were the perfect signings at the time and if anything I'm giving him credit for identifying the problematic areas in our team and finding the right players to fit into those roles.

Redknapp also deserves credit for realizing that we needed PL proven players that would integrate quickly into a team that was disjointed and already had players that needed adapting. Early days this was clearly the right strategy and it helped us benefit from the previous "signing players with massive potential" strategy that had left us with a very talented, but disjointed and developing squad. It's a lesson worth keeping in mind as we're now again working hard to integrate a large number of clearly very talented players.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I think it would have been interesting to see what he could have done if given the time. It would have taken a ridiculous amount of patience and a clear demonstration to the players that as long as the club avoided relegation, this was the man they were going to have to listen to. Then we'd see how his methods turned out.

Basically I'd love a 'Spanish Too' book written about Ramos just to see what his ideas were exactly. Clive Allen said he had some great ideas but the players just didn't take them in. To be honest I think most managers have a certain level of aptitude, and a Ramos type character is good for a club like ours to get in on before anyone else to hopefully capitalise on the arbitrage between his new ideas being ahead of their time and other more old school managers failing to adapt to them. It's all about getting a manager with the right ideas, at the right time, for the right players at the right club. And to be fair to AVB I think the fact that he was capable of getting results at the same time as implementing new ideas shows he did better than Ramos.

Still though, it would have been interesting to see how we turned out had we backed Ramos all season. Not saying it would have been anything more than a disaster but if our club fancied giving it a whirl, I would have gone along for the ride.

If you read Ledley King's autobiography it's clear that he rated and had a good relationship with every manager (particularly Jol) that we had. Apart from Ramos, who he thought was a massive cheese. He said him and Poyet were constantly on a different page, very much like Santini and Jol had been a few seasons earlier when it all went wrong for them. And also made reference to the fact that although tactically good when setting up against the good sides, he had no clue about how to play against the weaker sides in the division.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

A point (or three) against Liverpool on Sunday would mean that AVB has amassed 100 Premier League points faster than any manager in Tottenham's history.

Which you would expect from a manager that takes over a 4th place team. Good achievement though and should buy him some deserved breathing space from the press.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

If you read Ledley King's autobiography it's clear that he rated and had a good relationship with every manager (particularly Jol) that we had. Apart from Ramos, who he thought was a massive cheese. He said him and Poyet were constantly on a different page, very much like Santini and Jol had been a few seasons earlier when it all went wrong for them. And also made reference to the fact that although tactically good when setting up against the good sides, he had no clue about how to play against the weaker sides in the division.

Interesting....thanks. Shows the importance of everyone at the club pulling in the same direction. Really hope whatever Sherwood and AVB had going on has now ceased.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Which you would expect from a manager that takes over a 4th place team. Good achievement though and should buy him some deserved breathing space from the press.

This is a fair point.

I would like to contend though (not your point in particular, Bear) but the point that AVB had a stronger squad and that the rest of the league was weak and therefore record points didn't mean anything in that sense. There's no reason why we were one of the 'haves' rather than the 'have nots' or even that we don't go down to Liverpool or Everton's level. We easily could have done. A bad manager would have taken us 8th, an average manager 6th, a good manager 5th and an amazing manager getting everything right 3rd or 4th.

The fact that we were so in touch with 3rd and 4th in his first year wasn't just down to the rest of the teams being weak. We could have easily been down there ourselves.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Martin Lipton suggesting AVB has until the end of the season unless a spectacular implosion but must get top 4...kind of ties with the discussion from ealiy about whether 6th for example would be good enough.

Personally I think it's silly to set a target like that but on the other hand I can admire the clubs ambition. I just don't think it's fair to decide to sack a coach when there could be a lot of other things to consider, and potentially undo the progress that has been made. Who's to say it takes one year to integrate foreign players and get top 4....maybe it takes 2 years and we got top 2? (For example?)

 

[Baleforce]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

it would be crazy to assign that now, its a decision that can only be taken when all the facts are in place, we could be unlucky with injuries, be on the end of dodgy refereeing decisions, have another lasagne

I don't think Levy is stupid enough to be that single minded

 

[ringo]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

And what if he got top 4 playing unattractive football and with a very low goals for tally, being thrashed by Arsenal and Chelsea in the process, would we/owners be happy with that?
Or if he just missed top four having torn up the rest of the season smashing in goals from every angle and thrashing Arsenal at home and in the cup and Chelsea away?
It is tricky deciding what criteria to use to judge potential and/or performance.

 

[Cochise]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Most fans saw an improvement in our play at Sunderland so we can be happy to say that there are improvements to style. Still, the players we have want to be playing in the champs league and pushing on for the league in a year or two. If we finish sixth and the board say we will give AVB more time, what message does it send to the players? Some may instantly look for better options and then we end up having to integrate new players again.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

And what if he got top 4 playing unattractive football and with a very low goals for tally, being thrashed by Arsenal and Chelsea in the process, would we/owners be happy with that?
Or if he just missed top four having torn up the rest of the season smashing in goals from every angle and thrashing Arsenal at home and in the cup and Chelsea away?
It is tricky deciding what criteria to use to judge potential and/or performance.

Exactly. I get the feeling though that the board feel they have to justify the removal of Harry and 2 seasons out of the top 4 may be too much for them. It's a stupid way to make a decision IMO but I bet that's along the lines of what they are thinking.

It's good to have targets, and good to have ambition. I just feel football is a game with so many variables that could help or hinder us that it's not good to draw a line like that.

 

[DHSF]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Martin Lipton suggesting AVB has until the end of the season unless a spectacular implosion but must get top 4...kind of ties with the discussion from ealiy about whether 6th for example would be good enough.

Personally I think it's silly to set a target like that but on the other hand I can admire the clubs ambition. I just don't think it's fair to decide to sack a coach when there could be a lot of other things to consider, and potentially undo the progress that has been made. Who's to say it takes one year to integrate foreign players and get top 4....maybe it takes 2 years and we got top 2? (For example?)

AVB CHOSE to get those players in so technically he has to suffer the consequences of his decision making - like we ALL have to in life.

Now if you say AVB didnt choose those players - then we come back to the whole DoF structure... you cant have it both ways

People on here harp on about how Martinez got in players who have played PL football before - WELL - err he CHOSE to... AVB DIDNT... hence you can argue that Martinez has better decision making skills.

ARGH

 

[milo]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Martin Lipton suggesting AVB has until the end of the season unless a spectacular implosion but must get top 4...kind of ties with the discussion from ealiy about whether 6th for example would be good enough.

Personally I think it's silly to set a target like that but on the other hand I can admire the clubs ambition. I just don't think it's fair to decide to sack a coach when there could be a lot of other things to consider, and potentially undo the progress that has been made. Who's to say it takes one year to integrate foreign players and get top 4....maybe it takes 2 years and we got top 2? (For example?)

I would imagine that only a handful of people know what targets AVB has to achieve and I doubt that it is any of their interests to leak them to the press.

I suspect that this is just speculation based on speculation.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

AVB CHOSE to get those players in so technically he has to suffer the consequences of his decision making - like we ALL have to in life.

Now if you say AVB didnt choose those players - then we come back to the whole DoF structure... you cant have it both ways

People on here harp on about how Martinez got in players who have played PL football before - WELL - err he CHOSE to... AVB DIDNT... hence you can argue that Martinez has better decision making skills.

ARGH

Or that he thought they'd be good enough to keep pace with top 4 until they settled and got the prem experience they need and that the long term upside to these players was higher than those Everton got (we had no chance on lukaku because of his parent club, I think he's the only one AVB would have looked at).