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Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

DHSF said:
AVB CHOSE to get those players in so technically he has to suffer the consequences of his decision making - like we ALL have to in life.

Now if you say AVB didnt choose those players - then we come back to the whole DoF structure... you cant have it both ways

People on here harp on about how Martinez got in players who have played PL football before - WELL - err he CHOSE to... AVB DIDNT... hence you can argue that Martinez has better decision making skills.

ARGH
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Ok but for one...it's not all AVB's decision...which means you then look to the DoF structure, but the business this summer doesn't mean the structure is faulty.

I think targets have to be aligned and be realistic. Signing foreigners rather than more limited English players can pay off once they settle. And signing foreigners from overseas rather than paying over the odds for PL experience can also pay off well in the future. Once we've made that decision though, we should be setting our targets accordingly.

Martinez chose to get a few loans in because they were available, plus McCarthy who he knew. I love the guy, but our objectives are different and as such we are taking steps that need to propel us higher than Everton want to go in the future. We have to take more risks. But that's not really the crux of my point here.

Basically I feel it would be silly to rid ourselves of a coach who is clearly highly rated in the game because of some arbitrary target, without considering the other factors on that.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

BrainOfLevy said:
Ok but for one...it's not all AVB's decision...which means you then look to the DoF structure, but the business this summer doesn't mean the structure is faulty.

I think targets have to be aligned and be realistic. Signing foreigners rather than more limited English players can pay off once they settle. And signing foreigners from overseas rather than paying over the odds for PL experience can also pay off well in the future. Once we've made that decision though, we should be setting our targets accordingly.

Martinez chose to get a few loans in because they were available, plus McCarthy who he knew. I love the guy, but our objectives are different and as such we are taking steps that need to propel us higher than Everton want to go in the future. We have to take more risks. But that's not really the crux of my point here.

Basically I feel it would be silly to rid ourselves of a coach who is clearly highly rated in the game because of some arbitrary target, without considering the other factors on that.
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I agree - targets are like statistics - bull ****. Theyre not absolute and can always be affected by variables and factors. For example - what if ALL seven players we brought in were injured for the whole season? that would just be bad and ****ty luck. Although I can imagine that AVB would have promised to get top four - for some reason I can envisage that.

I wasnt using this argument to bring up Martinez v AVB but just wanted to highlight that its one way or the other, in terms of bringing in the foreign players who have taken time to adapt - someone has to be held accountable for the decisions of bringing in those players - especially if your target is going to be top four this season.

I have a feeling we need to get top four as this will help with the stadium thing and by not getting top four we are delaying in bringing in sponsorship etc. There is a knock on effect.

ps - since when was AVB highly regarded? I dont think he is... in fact id go as far as to say - how the **** did this guy get this get two top jobs based on a season of success in Portugal.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Seems a lot of you (no offense meant), don't work in high pressure, target oriented jobs.

There will be no question in my mind that AVB has, multiple targets -> minimum, goal, exceeded type positioning. Failure to meet minimum will lead to his removal from the job, regardless of if it's because of players failing to settle, unlucky with injuries, anything like that.

Just how modern top tier jobs in certain industries work, extremely difficult targets to achieve (sometime more than borderline unrealistic), rewards if you make it, failure is usually loss of job.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

DHSF said:
I agree - targets are like statistics - bull ****. Theyre not absolute and can always be affected by variables and factors. For example - what if ALL seven players we brought in were injured for the whole season? that would just be bad and ****ty luck. Although I can imagine that AVB would have promised to get top four - for some reason I can envisage that.

I wasnt using this argument to bring up Martinez v AVB but just wanted to highlight that its one way or the other, in terms of bringing in the foreign players who have taken time to adapt - someone has to be held accountable for the decisions of bringing in those players - especially if your target is going to be top four this season.

I have a feeling we need to get top four as this will help with the stadium thing and by not getting top four we are delaying in bringing in sponsorship etc. There is a knock on effect.

ps - since when was AVB highly regarded? I dont think he is... in fact id go as far as to say - how the **** did this guy get this get two top jobs based on a season of success in Portugal.
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I agree with you there. I just wonder how helpful it is in helping us achieve our aim? I mean, why not demand the title? That would be great for our commercial revenue. Doesn't mean it's realistic, and I don't know why top 4 is just because we need it.

What happens if AVB doesn't get it? We bring in Capello? Then he doesn't and we roll the dice with Hoddle? Maybe the secret to success was sticking with something for the long term and not giving up after a couple of years.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

BrainOfLevy said:
I agree with you there. I just wonder how helpful it is in helping us achieve our aim? I mean, why not demand the title? That would be great for our commercial revenue. Doesn't mean it's realistic, and I don't know why top 4 is just because we need it.

What happens if AVB doesn't get it? We bring in Capello? Then he doesn't and we roll the dice with Hoddle? Maybe the secret to success was sticking with something for the long term and not giving up after a couple of years.
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I have a feeling im the only one but I am not of the school of thought that Levy really wanted AVB or perhaps a better phrase would be - not convinced of AVB. I think Levy felt he had to sack Harry (Levys reasons obviously) and there werent many available Managers out there - AVB was available though. I suspect Levy wants someone 'magnificent' and perhaps proven and if that means Capello then so be it (I wouldnt get in Capello personally)...

I wouldnt sack AVB yet but like I say he definitely needs to improve the performances.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

BrainOfLevy said:
Martin Lipton suggesting AVB has until the end of the season unless a spectacular implosion but must get top 4...kind of ties with the discussion from ealiy about whether 6th for example would be good enough.

Personally I think it's silly to set a target like that but on the other hand I can admire the clubs ambition. I just don't think it's fair to decide to sack a coach when there could be a lot of other things to consider, and potentially undo the progress that has been made. Who's to say it takes one year to integrate foreign players and get top 4....maybe it takes 2 years and we got top 2? (For example?)
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I think 6th would be scraping the barrel tbh. 5th would be acceptable but I'm not sure if Levy would see it that way.

Depends on the circumstances I would say, we could finish 5th and 10 points behind 4th or 6th and only 1 or 2 points behind 4th.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

DHSF said:
I have a feeling im the only one but I am not of the school of thought that Levy really wanted AVB or perhaps a better phrase would be - not convinced of AVB. I think Levy felt he had to sack Harry (Levys reasons obviously) and there werent many available Managers out there - AVB was available though. I suspect Levy wants someone 'magnificent' and perhaps proven and if that means Capello then so be it (I wouldnt get in Capello personally)...

I wouldnt sack AVB yet but like I say he definitely needs to improve the performances.
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Didn't we go for Rodgers before AVB?
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Raziel said:
Seems a lot of you (no offense meant), don't work in high pressure, target oriented jobs.

There will be no question in my mind that AVB has, multiple targets -> minimum, goal, exceeded type positioning. Failure to meet minimum will lead to his removal from the job, regardless of if it's because of players failing to settle, unlucky with injuries, anything like that.

Just how modern top tier jobs in certain industries work, extremely difficult targets to achieve (sometime more than borderline unrealistic), rewards if you make it, failure is usually loss of job.
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My role is, as you state, fairly target and deadline orientated, and whilst they dont directly translate financially in terms of revenues brought in, I cant use the excuse that my staff are incompetent/off sick etc when I dont hit my deadlines or achieve my Key Performance Targets. I imagine AVB cant do that (unless of course he had no money to buy players etc - which we all know he did have - £100m actually plus 60m the previous season - although ill let that go as I think Levy had too much of a say)
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

DHSF said:
My role is, as you state, fairly target and deadline orientated, and whilst they dont directly translate financially in terms of revenues brought in, I cant use the excuse that my staff are incompetent/off sick etc when I dont hit my deadlines or achieve my Key Performance Targets. I imagine AVB cant do that (unless of course he had no money to buy players etc - which we all know he did have - £100m actually plus 60m the previous season - although ill let that go as I think Levy had too much of a say)
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Exactly, we all deal with interfering management, unrealistic targets and/or lack of flexibility due to extenuating circumstances.

Modern football is just a very public example. My opinion, anything under 5th is probably the end for AVB. Winning a cup might alter that slightly, i.e. 6th and European cup could give him another season to get it right.

I believe AVB was always a target for Levy, Harry was always a stop gap measure. Levy to give him credit is trying to do something long term, but he knows, if you give up places in league (drop out of top 6) even for a year or two, it's very very difficult to get back to those spots.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Raziel said:
Exactly, we all deal with interfering management, unrealistic targets and/or lack of flexibility due to extenuating circumstances.

Modern football is just a very public example. My opinion, anything under 5th is probably the end for AVB. Winning a cup might alter that slightly, i.e. 6th and European cup could give him another season to get it right.

I believe AVB was always a target for Levy, Harry was always a stop gap measure. Levy to give him credit is trying to do something long term, but he knows, if you give up places in league (drop out of top 6) even for a year or two, it's very very difficult to get back to those spots.
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I don't think you can liken business to performance sport. Sure there are some similarities, e.g. striving to hit objectives, but in sport is there not an argument to say that you should give a realistic enough amount of time to build something before giving up?

I mean, I think there's a good chance Liverpool finish 7th again this year, depending on how Everton perform (obviously they can also finish higher). If they did finish 7th, but the top 7 were all very close, should Rodgers be given up upon? I don't think he should, and I don't think Liverpool would do that.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

BrainOfLevy said:
I don't think you can liken business to performance sport. Sure there are some similarities, e.g. striving to hit objectives, but in sport is there not an argument to say that you should give a realistic enough amount of time to build something before giving up?

I mean, I think there's a good chance Liverpool finish 7th again this year, depending on how Everton perform (obviously they can also finish higher). If they did finish 7th, but the top 7 were all very close, should Rodgers be given up upon? I don't think he should, and I don't think Liverpool would do that.
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Actually yes, he should be. Effectively if Pool's goal is CL places, then Rodgers role is to provide that, his failure to do so is costing the club 75-150M of direct revenue over a 3 year period plus loss of exposure, marketing and the fact that rivals are improving their position.

Sport is a business now and will be run that way, if Rodgers or AVB finish 7th this year, they will very likely be dismissed.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

galeforce said:
but the aim has to be realistic surely
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Again, high end business? no it doesn't.

Managing a club is becoming like certain high risk, high reward business roles/jobs. Targets really not realistic, if you make it you get paid very well, is you don't you get cut, your career is trying to get 2-3 years runs together where you make those goals knowing eventually you will miss and be looking for your next role.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Raziel said:
Exactly, we all deal with interfering management, unrealistic targets and/or lack of flexibility due to extenuating circumstances.

Modern football is just a very public example. My opinion, anything under 5th is probably the end for AVB. Winning a cup might alter that slightly, i.e. 6th and European cup could give him another season to get it right.

I believe AVB was always a target for Levy, Harry was always a stop gap measure. Levy to give him credit is trying to do something long term, but he knows, if you give up places in league (drop out of top 6) even for a year or two, it's very very difficult to get back to those spots.
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Exactly. Liverpool have signed some very good players in the last few years, but they haven't been able to attract any real top players, Suarez is a top player now of course, but he wasn't when they signed him IMO. That's just the way it is, if managers don't hit their targets, then eventually they will be removed.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Raziel said:
Again, high end business? no it doesn't.

Managing a club is becoming like certain high risk, high reward business roles/jobs. Targets really not realistic, if you make it you get paid very well, is you don't you get cut, your career is trying to get 2-3 years runs together where you make those goals knowing eventually you will miss and be looking for your next role.
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But why would a new manager be any more likely to get top 4 than AVB, now 2 years into the job with and with his foreign signings all acclimatised to the English game?

I understand business, I work to targets, but I just think in a league that is so competitive, the answer isn't just to throw **** at the wall and see what sticks, the idea is to have a long term strategy and to carry it through.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

BrainOfLevy said:
But why would a new manager be any more likely to get top 4 than AVB, now 2 years into the job with and with his foreign signings all acclimatised to the English game?

I understand business, I work to targets, but I just think in a league that is so competitive, the answer isn't just to throw **** at the wall and see what sticks, the idea is to have a long term strategy and to carry it through.
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Not arguing with your logic, I generally agree, where we disagree is I don't think that's how clubs are run.

Look at the tenure of all managers now, outside of Wenger, Rodgers and AVB are actually in role long, stupid system, but the risk/reward is only compounding it.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

BrainOfLevy said:
Martin Lipton suggesting AVB has until the end of the season unless a spectacular implosion but must get top 4
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I'd say it's true that for Levy only a spectacular implosion would get AVB the sack before season's end. After all, barring an implosion we're unlikely to be mathematically out of contention for 4th until relatively late in the season, so it's hard to see what else would trigger board action.

But then the problem becomes: How do you sack a guy in the summer for failing to get ahead of money machines Chelsea and City, the big beasts of Manyoo and the resurgent brilliance of Arsenal under one of the best, longest-serving managers in the world? That is a monster of an expectation to set. Which makes me think the manner of finishing 5th or even 6th might be as important as the fact of finishing there when his future's decided.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I wonder if we finish 6th and win the Europa. Would that be enough for Levy?
 
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