American politics

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Indeed " land of the free, home of the brave" and all that other crap.

"Patriotism is the last refuse of a scoundrel"

 

[monkeybarry]

That's the single greatest thing about the US.

Nobody wants to punish the rich because everyone hopes that will be them in a few years. Compare that with the British way of feeling that they're owed something and wanting to fudge things up for everyone else if they don't get it.

Compared to the Swedish way where everyone can well off but few need to worry about being trampled on by someone else's ambition to be "financially rich"

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I find it incredible in a country where 48% of the population are low income or living in poverty want to vote for billionaires to run the government, but as an american I worked with told me a chimp wrapped in "Ole Glory" and holding a bible had a good chance of winning.

This is the so called 'aspirational' voter. They don't want to change the system because the poor deluded fools believe that one day, they will be sitting at the big table.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

That's the single greatest thing about the US.

Nobody wants to punish the rich because everyone hopes that will be them in a few years. Compare that with the British way of feeling that they're owed something and wanting to fudge things up for everyone else if they don't get it.

Ha, ha. That is really funny Scara.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Ha, ha. That is really funny Scara.

Don't get him started, he wants the Czar re-instated and get rid of that liberal Putin

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Don't get him started, he wants the Czar re-instated and get rid of that liberal Putin

He, he. Comedy gold!

 

[the dza]

Possibly because of government legislation and violent repression of strikes, to many it was still a better life than they had in europe, as Britain is today to people from the east.

I just like that quote

 

[scaramanga]

Compared to the Swedish way where everyone can well off but few need to worry about being trampled on by someone else's ambition to be "financially rich"

You mean the Swedish way that was built on low taxes and spending until the 50s at which point it benefited from staying out of WWII and therefore had no recession or rebuilding costs?

Or do you mean the Swedish way that hasn't worked with a population larger than London in the history of the human race?

 

[monkeybarry]

You mean the Swedish way that was built on low taxes and spending until the 50s at which point it benefited from staying out of WWII and therefore had no recession or rebuilding costs?

Or do you mean the Swedish way that hasn't worked with a population larger than London in the history of the human race?

I mean both.
Some good choices ;-)

 

[braineclipse]

That's the single greatest thing about the US.

Nobody wants to punish the rich because everyone hopes that will be them in a few years. Compare that with the British way of feeling that they're owed something and wanting to fudge things up for everyone else if they don't get it.

I know your views on wealth disparity, but surely when huge wealth disparity is coupled with large numbers of poor and little social mobility you see why that's problematic? How can something that helps develop and maintain that situation be a great thing about a country?

You mean the Swedish way that was built on low taxes and spending until the 50s at which point it benefited from staying out of WWII and therefore had no recession or rebuilding costs?

Or do you mean the Swedish way that hasn't worked with a population larger than London in the history of the human race?

It's my impression that the two world wars helped the US from a financial point of view more than just about any country on earth. Perhaps the US need another world war to get themselves out of being owned by China in a generation or two... My impression is that having Mao carved in on Mount Rushmore might not be desirable.

If you think the Scandinavian countries are too small to use as comparison what about one of the biggest losers of WW2? Germany... Flattened and desperate post WW2 West Germany then had to incorporate the struggling DDR around 25 years ago. They've seen the same international financial problems since then, but have still emerged a very strong economy.

 

[scaramanga]

I know your views on wealth disparity, but surely when huge wealth disparity is coupled with large numbers of poor and little social mobility you see why that's problematic? How can something that helps develop and maintain that situation be a great thing about a country?

It's only a problem if the social mobility is inherent and cannot be overcome.

That does exist in the US to an extent, but there are still plenty of opportunities too. Obviously no system is perfect, but the US has been as close as we've got.

It's my impression that the two world wars helped the US from a financial point of view more than just about any country on earth. Perhaps the US need another world war to get themselves out of being owned by China in a generation or two... My impression is that having Mao carved in on Mount Rushmore might not be desirable.

I don't doubt that the US gained from the wars - they were perfectly placed in terms of not facing the destruction everyone else did.

In terms of taking them out of The Depression - it's hard to say what would have happened without the war acting as a jump start, but that situation had already been worsened by madcap redistribution schemes.

If you think the Scandinavian countries are too small to use as comparison what about one of the biggest losers of WW2? Germany... Flattened and desperate post WW2 West Germany then had to incorporate the struggling DDR around 25 years ago. They've seen the same international financial problems since then, but have still emerged a very strong economy.

There's a lot to admire in what Germany does as I've said before here.

Businesses are generally treated very well by the state and have an ear whenever needed. Publicly funded private healthcare is also an excellent scheme. My favourite bit about the German economy though is how they keep pulling the wool over the eyes of the unions. I'll try and find an old post of mine where I linked the analysis but they're incredibly good at ensuring low wage inflation whilst removing the more troublesome unions altogether - it's genius.

 

[braineclipse]

It's only a problem if the social mobility is inherent and cannot be overcome.

That does exist in the US to an extent, but there are still plenty of opportunities too. Obviously no system is perfect, but the US has been as close as we've got.


I don't doubt that the US gained from the wars - they were perfectly placed in terms of not facing the destruction everyone else did.

In terms of taking them out of The Depression - it's hard to say what would have happened without the war acting as a jump start, but that situation had already been worsened by madcap redistribution schemes.


There's a lot to admire in what Germany does as I've said before here.

Businesses are generally treated very well by the state and have an ear whenever needed. Publicly funded private healthcare is also an excellent scheme. My favourite bit about the German economy though is how they keep pulling the wool over the eyes of the unions. I'll try and find an old post of mine where I linked the analysis but they're incredibly good at ensuring low wage inflation whilst removing the more troublesome unions altogether - it's genius.

I assume you meant "social immobility". If so the extent to which it can be overcome sureIly exists on a continuum. For me it seems that in the US, particularly for the poor (a growing number with the disappearing middle class) the extent to which there is social mobility is small and shrinking. That's problematic.

I don't get how what you say here adds up to your claim about the US and the beliefs of the poor. Does that exist in Germany too? If not, would it make Germany a better place? What is it about this particular american belief that is so good?

 

[scaramanga]

I assume you meant "social immobility". If so the extent to which it can be overcome sureIly exists on a continuum. For me it seems that in the US, particularly for the poor (a growing number with the disappearing middle class) the extent to which there is social mobility is small and shrinking. That's problematic.

Yes I did, thanks.

It is a problem but I think it's less of a problem than in other parts of the world. The US is starting to pick up the UK culture of feeling as if one is owed something and it's an awful shame to see. To me, that's the most concerning cause of social immobility and the one that needs to be dealt with the most.

I don't get how what you say here adds up to your claim about the US and the beliefs of the poor. Does that exist in Germany too? If not, would it make Germany a better place? What is it about this particular american belief that is so good?

There's certainly an attitude in Germany of needing to work hard and earn one's own money. Their lack of personal debt is something to be admired. I certainly don't get a sense in Germany (although I've only worked there for a sum total of about 6 months in small chunks) that the rich should be taxed just because they're rich - large business owners are highly regarded and considered examples of achievement IMO. In the UK however, there's certainly a feeling that people should be punished for being successful - there's a very strong underlying hatred on the left of the UK's political spectrum.

It's more a moral argument than anything for me - I think it's "right" (as much as that term can ever be used) to want to achieve, to better oneself and to do so off of one's own back. At the beginning of the 20th century, people with that work ethic flocked to the US from all over the world to try and make a better life for themselves. It seems that in increasing numbers Americans now want to be spoonfed by the state and the hatred of the successful is certainly starting to take hold.

 

[braineclipse]

Yes I did, thanks.

It is a problem but I think it's less of a problem than in other parts of the world. The US is starting to pick up the UK culture of feeling as if one is owed something and it's an awful shame to see. To me, that's the most concerning cause of social immobility and the one that needs to be dealt with the most.

What makes it less of a problem there than elsewhere?

Can't speak about the UK with as much knowledge as you, but for the US there seems to be a real unhappiness with some real grudges to be held towards the rich and the powerful. People find themselves in desperate situations working hard and getting nowhere. They see an education system where the poor have very little chance of getting anywhere along with well paid jobs dwindling.

I think you have expressed one of the reasons for revolution throughout history. People feeling like they're owed something. But you seem to think that this feeling is never justified when expressed among the poor?

There's certainly an attitude in Germany of needing to work hard and earn one's own money. Their lack of personal debt is something to be admired. I certainly don't get a sense in Germany (although I've only worked there for a sum total of about 6 months in small chunks) that the rich should be taxed just because they're rich - large business owners are highly regarded and considered examples of achievement IMO. In the UK however, there's certainly a feeling that people should be punished for being successful - there's a very strong underlying hatred on the left of the UK's political spectrum.

It's more a moral argument than anything for me - I think it's "right" (as much as that term can ever be used) to want to achieve, to better oneself and to do so off of one's own back. At the beginning of the 20th century, people with that work ethic flocked to the US from all over the world to try and make a better life for themselves. It seems that in increasing numbers Americans now want to be spoonfed by the state and the hatred of the successful is certainly starting to take hold.

Again I'm speaking based on limited knowledge here. But my impression is that Americans are very willing to work hard. No less so than the golden time of the american dream some decades ago. But good middle class, low education, jobs are rare to find. People talk about jobs, but good jobs should be the question (Dan Carlin). It used to be that a single income could support more or less a middle class family lifestyle. Without the dad (usually) being extremely hard working or talented. How would the americans of the past deal with the current job market and financial situation in the US? I'm guessing a lot of them would have felt like they were owed something, just like they have at times in the past. Offer a current working poor and unhappy american a job where a single person makes enough to support a family living a middle class lifestyle and I have a feeling for the vast majority of them the feeling of being owed something would go away.

For the UK. You're saying that generations of a very class conscious and to some extent class segregated society leaves the poor people of the lower classes feeling that they're owed something? No way... I'm sure this would be news to struggling societies throughout history...

 

[the dza]

A person might be defined as poor if they earn whatever the minimum wage is in a given country and have no assets to support them financially. In that case, I'd much rather be poor in the UK than be poor in the USA. And since there will always be many more poor than rich, imo it's a better measure of a society to compare how the poor there are living compared to the poor in countries of comparable development.

 

[scaramanga]

What makes it less of a problem there than elsewhere?

Can't speak about the UK with as much knowledge as you, but for the US there seems to be a real unhappiness with some real grudges to be held towards the rich and the powerful. People find themselves in desperate situations working hard and getting nowhere. They see an education system where the poor have very little chance of getting anywhere along with well paid jobs dwindling.

I think you have expressed one of the reasons for revolution throughout history. People feeling like they're owed something. But you seem to think that this feeling is never justified when expressed among the poor?

It's the remainder of the hard working, entrepreneurial spirit that makes me think they can overcome the immobility better than others. Certainly more so than the UK where there are 3 generation households that have never worked and never intend to.

I don't know a huge amount about the US education system but having listened to Freakonomics I've heard a lot of promising solutions that never seem to make it past the test phase. It's certainly not a spending issue as far as I can tell - in which case the state has done the bit it needs to do - maybe it should hand the rest over to a more competent structure. How do you define a well paid job? The pay for a job is surely whatever the market can cope with - if people can do your job cheaper than you can as well as you can then maybe you need to look for another job or realign your expectations from life.

It's not just the poor that feeling is unjustified in, nobody is entitled to anything.

Again I'm speaking based on limited knowledge here. But my impression is that Americans are very willing to work hard. No less so than the golden time of the american dream some decades ago. But good middle class, low education, jobs are rare to find. People talk about jobs, but good jobs should be the question (Dan Carlin). It used to be that a single income could support more or less a middle class family lifestyle. Without the dad (usually) being extremely hard working or talented. How would the americans of the past deal with the current job market and financial situation in the US? I'm guessing a lot of them would have felt like they were owed something, just like they have at times in the past. Offer a current working poor and unhappy american a job where a single person makes enough to support a family living a middle class lifestyle and I have a feeling for the vast majority of them the feeling of being owed something would go away.

That sounds like a bit of a circular argument there. Women have almost doubled the number of people in the labour market (having a corresponding effect on wages after an upward adjustment for the extra skills and knowledge they've brought) but people want a single wage to be enough to support the whole family. I can't see how that can ever work without the economy doubling in size plus the increases in size from population growth.

I've seen an aspect of that just in the time I've worked in my current workplace. 10 years ago, people used to queue up outside my door at 4.30 every afternoon asking for overtime - if we needed a rush job done there would always be someone there to do it and we could keep a flexible workforce. Over that time, it's got to the point now where everyone refuses to do overtime. Partly that's because of wage inflation - the minimum wage increases now have people who pick things up from one place and put them down somewhere else earning the same as some of our most skilled staff were earning. Mainly though, it's down to the fact that most of our staff have wives or girlfriends working and they don't need the money now.

For the UK. You're saying that generations of a very class conscious and to some extent class segregated society leaves the poor people of the lower classes feeling that they're owed something? No way... I'm sure this would be news to struggling societies throughout history...

The death of the class system in the UK is one of the main contributors to its downfall IMO. The class system used to provide people with something to which they could aspire - the class system was the very reason to work hard.

 

[Grays_1890]

The death of the class system in the UK is one of the main contributors to its downfall IMO. The class system used to provide people with something to which they could aspire - the class system was the very reason to work hard.

I think people have just wised up to it.

If everyone worked hard enough to be rich and successful they would still fail as their is not enough industry or success to go around anyway.

The Rag to riches stories in the UK and worldwide are few and far between......

 

[braineclipse]

It's the remainder of the hard working, entrepreneurial spirit that makes me think they can overcome the immobility better than others. Certainly more so than the UK where there are 3 generation households that have never worked and never intend to.

I don't know a huge amount about the US education system but having listened to Freakonomics I've heard a lot of promising solutions that never seem to make it past the test phase. It's certainly not a spending issue as far as I can tell - in which case the state has done the bit it needs to do - maybe it should hand the rest over to a more competent structure. How do you define a well paid job? The pay for a job is surely whatever the market can cope with - if people can do your job cheaper than you can as well as you can then maybe you need to look for another job or realign your expectations from life.

It's not just the poor that feeling is unjustified in, nobody is entitled to anything.


That sounds like a bit of a circular argument there. Women have almost doubled the number of people in the labour market (having a corresponding effect on wages after an upward adjustment for the extra skills and knowledge they've brought) but people want a single wage to be enough to support the whole family. I can't see how that can ever work without the economy doubling in size plus the increases in size from population growth.

I've seen an aspect of that just in the time I've worked in my current workplace. 10 years ago, people used to queue up outside my door at 4.30 every afternoon asking for overtime - if we needed a rush job done there would always be someone there to do it and we could keep a flexible workforce. Over that time, it's got to the point now where everyone refuses to do overtime. Partly that's because of wage inflation - the minimum wage increases now have people who pick things up from one place and put them down somewhere else earning the same as some of our most skilled staff were earning. Mainly though, it's down to the fact that most of our staff have wives or girlfriends working and they don't need the money now.


The death of the class system in the UK is one of the main contributors to its downfall IMO. The class system used to provide people with something to which they could aspire - the class system was the very reason to work hard.

Not a fan of unrestricted capitalism myself. A well paid job is one that allows the employee a certain security and a good standard of living.

My point is that the attitudes you find disagreeable are formed by the world people live in.

I really don't think employees at your workplace make a good comparison to the working poor in the US, though you obviously know a bit more about your workplace than I know from looking in through the west-windows from that big tree.

 

[scaramanga]

I think people have just wised up to it.

If everyone worked hard enough to be rich and successful they would still fail as their is not enough industry or success to go around anyway.

The Rag to riches stories in the UK and worldwide are few and far between......

That's the fatal flaw in the understanding of the system and an perfect example of the "I want it now" generation.

Nobody climbs the class ladder instantly - in fact, nobody climbs it themselves much at all. If you start off working class and do well for yourself you're still working class, you're just a bit richer. Get your kids a good education and bring them up speaking well and with a bit of etiquette and they'll be middle class - it's an iterative method.

 

[braineclipse]

That's the fatal flaw in the understanding of the system and an perfect example of the "I want it now" generation.

Nobody climbs the class ladder instantly - in fact, nobody climbs it themselves much at all. If you start off working class and do well for yourself you're still working class, you're just a bit richer. Get your kids a good education and bring them up speaking well and with a bit of etiquette and they'll be middle class - it's an iterative method.

People nominally middle class in the US start saving up around the time their kids are born to be able to send them to college. How do you expect the working poor to do this?

Everything you talk about. Iterative change over generations, getting a good education, working hard and not wanting it now depends on a decent living wage for the working poor. If not it's all hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck stuff and although there will be the occasional rags to riches story the actual amount of iterative change is really small. Thus the disappearing middle class.

You're really close to saying "kids these days" aren't you? Joining a tradition going back thousands of years of people saying just that and being wrong...

Old people...