Richarlison

[Baleforce]

I believe then we are back in the place of this debate where I remember being a few weeks ago…I don’t know the right answer but I question exactly how much accommodation a professional club, one of the top 20 biggest clubs in the world, must make for someone who is known to be emotional? At what point do you just expect a standard of behaviour?

I also think had he simply turned down the moves but not taken to social media, he probably would have been registered. As it was, the combination of the repeated changing of his mind, the social media posting and no move being good enough for him has landed him in this position.

I know your position is that we should have told
him to sign or leave much earlier in the summer. Again I’m not sure why the club should not be allowed to try and convince him to stay? Clearly they let most players go who wanted to, but with Bergval they made an effort to keep him which worked. I think at some point they lost trust in him / he said he firmly wanted out and would not stay. Either way, I would have sympathy for Richy if it comes out that he had said he absolutely wanted to stay, and we banked that commitment, and then we turned around and tried to offload him in part exchange. That would be very bad. Otherwise, I think he must have been the only player this summer that took to social media to criticise their club during a transfer negotiation. And to that I say, what was so egregious about the club’s treatment of him that they deserved that? I don’t think being emotional is an excuse, unless there is a big piece of the story we are missing here.

I think every company should make every accommodation possible for the mental health and wellbeing of their staff.

I know you were not asking me but that is table stakes these days for all employers.

 

[Muttley]

It is if you dislike the player LOL...

Bingo.

I'd actually have a lot more respect if posters didn't play this card repeatedly. We've seen it a fair few times e.g. Ange, Frank etc.

There are endless pages of really objective and friendly conversations about Richi. It's been a fascinating topic and great contributions from pretty much everyone on GG.

It's actually quite disrespectful to fellow posters to bring it down to just liking or disliking Richi.

 

[parklane1]

I'd actually have a lot more respect if posters didn't play this card repeatedly. We've seen it a fair few times e.g. Ange, Frank etc.

There are endless pages of really objective and friendly conversations about Richi. It's been a fascinating topic and great contributions from pretty much everyone on GG.

It's actually quite disrespectful to fellow posters to bring it down to just liking or disliking Richi.

Sorry if it hurts your feelings.

 

[thfcsteff]

I believe then we are back in the place of this debate where I remember being a few weeks ago…

I agree.

I've explained my perspective and, IMO, answered questions you have very, very clearly with examples.

So we are back to differing opinions.

I will say I don't ever remember a Spurs manager saying about any other player that 'I dunno one day he wants to be here the next day he doesn't' before any transfer rumours have come out. Happy to be corrected on that if it is the case.

 

[Muttley]

I think every company should make every accommodation possible for the mental health and wellbeing of their staff.

I know you were not asking me but that is table stakes these days for all employers.

It's actually an area that I deep dived in the workplace through the lens of an Occupational Health company. In the UK we went through a period where everyone was jumping on the Mental Health First Aid (MHFA) bandwagon. Companies believe they could tackle MH in the workplace by having MHFA'ers and it failed spectacularly. It's like the irony of us calling it National Health Service when in so many ways it's the National Sick Service and just having doctors and nurses. You have to put things in place way before the work place adds onto the mental health problems, with work obviously only being one component of life. In order to do that you need a proactive Mental Health strategy first. The other dominoes then fall into place and MHFA can be a key component.

I have a feeing football has come a long way on this journey from the bad old days as articulated very well by guys like Aaron Lennon. If Aaron was passing through Spurs now I have a feeling that the club are way more equipped to detect what may have been happening to him. I think the club actually has massively improved.

I guess the key area of the Richi debate is about how much latitude can a club give to a player. You can't have a different set of standards per each individual. Every player has to be beholding to the same set of standards as a professional. So even if Richi is / was having a mental health challenge that cause him to dip below those standards, the club can't compromise their standards they want the players to operate under. It's a tough, tough equation but I do understand the stance. That is, as much as any outsider can with the data points we're given.

 

[thfcsteff]

I'd actually have a lot more respect if posters didn't play this card repeatedly. We've seen it a fair few times e.g. Ange, Frank etc.

There are endless pages of really objective and friendly conversations about Richi. It's been a fascinating topic and great contributions from pretty much everyone on GG.

It's actually quite disrespectful to fellow posters to bring it down to just liking or disliking Richi.

Your respect for what I write is yours to own, not mine to covet. Your interpretation of it is also yours and nothing to do with me.

I wish I could say I felt sorry you feel the way you do, but again, given it was not a personal comment, it's yours to feel about as you wish.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I think every company should make every accommodation possible for the mental health and wellbeing of their staff.

I know you were not asking me but that is table stakes these days for all employers.

I very much agree with you.

Does that accommodation extend to standards expected of every other player when it comes to behaviour in a transfer negotiation? I’m asking where the line is, not saying that mental health isn’t important.

We’re also not even 100% sure that Richy’s mental health challenges were the reason for this post? Is it mental health? Is it emotional volatility? Are they the same thing?

If the club were known to be a terrible modern day environment for players with mental health issues, I’d get it, but we don’t hear anything about that. If anything we seem quite progressive in the area. I think this was just Richy’s error in posting publicly during a big negotiation. And in effect calling out the club…it’s unprofessional.

 

[thfcsteff]

It's actually an area that I deep dived in the workplace through the lens of an Occupational Health company. In the UK we went through a period where everyone was jumping on the Mental Health First Aid (MHFA) bandwagon. Companies believe they could tackle MH in the workplace by having MHFA'ers and it failed spectacularly. It's like the irony of us calling it National Health Service when in so many ways it's the National Sick Service and just having doctors and nurses. You have to put things in place way before the work place adds onto the mental health problems, with work obviously only being one component of life. In order to do that you need a proactive Mental Health strategy first. The other dominoes then fall into place and MHFA can be a key component.

Society as a whole is embracing the reality of mental health more thankfully, albeit, when I see sensationalist pieces coming out which look to throw shade on aspects of Autism diagnosis, I am concerned we will swing back into the darkness.

I have a feeing football has come a long way on this journey from the bad old days as articulated very well by guys like Aaron Lennon. If Aaron was passing through Spurs now I have a feeling that the club are way more equipped to detect what may have been happening to him. I think the club actually has massively improved.

I agree with you on this, and it is to be commended (right down to the matchday initiatives for fans). It makes our curious approach in this situation all the weirder, albeit De Zerbi is an emotional man himself. I genuinely believed this would all be resolved with a handshake and agreement between manager and player to get on with it until January when he'd be off (player that is).

I guess the key area of the Richi debate is about how much latitude can a club give to a player. You can't have a different set of standards per each individual. Every player has to be beholding to the same set of standards as a professional. So even if Richi is / was having a mental health challenge that cause him to dip below those standards, the club can't compromise their standards they want the players to operate under. It's a tough, tough equation but I do understand the stance. That is, as much as any outsider can with the data points we're given.

IMO it is not about latitude, it's about understanding the person you have and approaching the situation accordingly (man-management to a degree in a different arena). I believe RDZ's summer comments during the tour set a tone. I wish we'd been smarter there. I personally believe that after Romero last season, a club decision was made regarding players and SM. No more of that sort of speaking out. Which I agree with. As much as I thought Romero was saying the right things, he should not be saying them publicly to me or anyone; as you would likely say, that is being disrespectful to your employer. So I feel that the destination we arrived at with Richarlison has roots in the Romero stuff.

I wish Richy had not made that defensive post, but there were many who thought he was screwing up our Ndiaye move, plus he'd already been painted as an 'unreliable actor' earlier in the summer by Der Zerbi, publicly. I wish we'd made the decision back then not to bring him on tour. Made it clear it was done unless he signed an extension. That might've allowed us to make a greater decision on Lankshear, or step up a striker search earlier.

 

[thfcsteff]

I very much agree with you.

Does that accommodation extend to standards expected of every other player when it comes to behaviour in a transfer negotiation? I’m asking where the line is, not saying that mental health isn’t important.

We’re also not even 100% sure that Richy’s mental health challenges were the reason for this post? Is it mental health? Is it emotional volatility? Are they the same thing?

If the club were known to be a terrible modern day environment for players with mental health issues, I’d get it, but we don’t hear anything about that. If anything we seem quite progressive in the area. I think this was just Richy’s error in posting publicly during a big negotiation. And in effect calling out the club…it’s unprofessional.

You're right.
We have no idea.
It could be seen as insulting to suggest that just because a guy defends himself publicly he must be suffering a crisis.

I DO think we all know Richy's an emotional person so perhaps another pattern of communication and behaviour would've been good to observe? Imagine if we'd told him pre-tour 'either sign the extension or let's part ways and we won't bring you on tour/into pre-season'? That is being clear. I don't think we were clear with him.

My feeling is we made a hard decision based on the Romero moments last season. And we mishandled Richy from the getgo this summer. So as I don't repeat myself, I replied to @Muttley with some expanded thoughts (if you can be bothered at this point LOL)...

 

[Baleforce]

I very much agree with you.

Does that accommodation extend to standards expected of every other player when it comes to behaviour in a transfer negotiation? I’m asking where the line is, not saying that mental health isn’t important.

We’re also not even 100% sure that Richy’s mental health challenges were the reason for this post? Is it mental health? Is it emotional volatility? Are they the same thing?

If the club were known to be a terrible modern day environment for players with mental health issues, I’d get it, but we don’t hear anything about that. If anything we seem quite progressive in the area. I think this was just Richy’s error in posting publicly during a big negotiation. And in effect calling out the club…it’s unprofessional.

I think you need a unique plan for each individual.

Yes we are sure what promoted the post, or what was put in front of him. I think it likely Everton were trying to take the tinkle, we know they are struggling financially.