Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[braineclipse]

We are lucky to see any two touch, let alone any one touch passing at the moment. Stop. Look. Assess. Turn. Look. Stop etc. then often the safe pass, probably because any progressive pass option has been covered by now. Yeah I suppose relationships are building?

On a wider note...One thing I find baffling or at least a conundrum is the ability of top players to feel nervous, unconfident and lacking in belief when it comes to the relative simple task of passing and moving.
The reason I say this, is because when we played Bodo this year their ability to make passing look easy, and I mean not just in the safe areas of the pitch, but all over, astounded me. These are a gaggle of players brought together way up in the artic circle. Hardly a desirable place to play or earn big money, yet even they can make the game look so smooth and simple. Yes, their coach has had them for a long time BUT it just goes to show that even that far down the scale it must be mostly a mentality thing. And you might think they'd only play with such personality in their own league, but they don't, they play just the same whether it's us, Roma, Lazio, Porto.
What would then ultimately limit them is their ability but what they do prove is the level of ability to carry out fluid passing doesn't have to be that high.

It's in part quality. Berg for Bodø Glimt Isn't overall a better player than Palhinha, Bentancur or Sarr. But at that aspect of the game he is a better player.

Teams that want to play like that prioritise players with those qualities, at the cost of other qualities. For them obviously Berg is at an astonishing level overall as well, but I think my point stands.

The other aspect is acceptance of risk. We had situations early in that game where we did press and won the ball for some potentially dangerous counter attacks. They accept that risk and kept doing what they were doing.

So far under Frank we're doing neither. Players who would be better at that, but worse at other things are not being played in midfield. And on the second point Bentancur in particular looks to be playing to instructions by always keeping it safe.

Another point is positioning of the players off the ball when we have possession. We set up to be in positions where if we lose the ball we can defend well. Teams who play with more "risk" position themselves more towards hurting the opposition and progress the ball.

Those things imo also contribute to a lack of belief and confidence. It becomes a mentality thing too. Safety first, or ambition on the ball first.

Leading to two potential solutions imo. Take the handbrake off and accept the "risk" or just go long and direct. Hope Solanke can make a difference or try to get Ivan Toney or someone like that in in January.

 

[braineclipse]

I can’t actually believe the fallacy that Ange played good, exciting football still exists tbh but I think that’s set in mythology forever now.

I think playing in the Chanpions League this season has skewed the idea of how good we actually are for some, I don’t think we’re currently Champions league level personally, we’re there because we won the Europa League (which is one thing I will always thank Ange for just for balance) which let’s be honest, is a very different set of teams with a different quality level.

In terms of consistently playing in a way that would actually achieve us CL through the league I really do think we’re some way off. I’m expectant and ok with us finishing about 7th this season, I just want European qualification, so EL or ECL. We should be playing in Europe every year, and as much as I’d love us to be in the CL I think we’re have to be realistic about what this team is consistently capable of.

We need a LB, we’re absolutely crying out for a real quality option at both LW and ST, and honestly I’d look for an additional option for the middle who can actually link that solid base with our attacking players with some quality on the ball. A lot of people are still caught in the mentality of the last 20 years, I think we need some time, patience and to see how the new set up with Vini, Frank, his coaching team, Paratici and Lange all shakes out. We’ve made a lot of changes off the pitch and that needs some time and windows for a new strategy to pay off.

We were absolutely rotten the other night, and rightfully called on it. I do think Frank, given time, can really achieve something here, and I completely get that after so many near misses and false dawns it’s hard to talk about having patience again. However I think we simply have to be patient here, and give it all time for the skilled people we have in place to work it all out. I’m hopeful we can get some business done in January, and I also think we will see a difference when Solanke, Kulusevski and some others are back.

Under Ange we played both fantastic football and really poor football. Last half a year in particular was mostly poor or not fantastic. A mix of bad and (mostly in the EL) something quite similar to what we're seeing this season. But at other times we did play fantastic football.

We do have injury problems now. And I definitely think that needs to be taken into account for Frank and Ange.

But if the comparison is to be made between the two I think in fairness it should also be pointed out what Frank has that Ange didn't. In particular Kudus and Palhinha, but also Simons.

We'll never know what those players could have done for us under Ange. But right now I also hope we never get to find out just how important Kudus in particular is for us now under Frank. I shudder at the thought of him being out now.

 

[Kandi1977]

Sorry if I’ve missed it but has Frank said anywhere that his plan is to fix the defence first then move on to the attack or is that the collective assumption? I’ve heard and read that this is the case but not seen him explicitly say it

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I interpret this as that it's not as free flowing as he wants it to be, but until the players are more comfortable with each other, and how we want to play, he priorities solidity.

 

[harr1984]

I hope you're wrong. But I definitely see your perspective as valid.

He's not wrong. Literally every manager comes in and implements their style from the beginning. It's often the case you have to go through a period of pain with this style and then the players become more accustomed to it, but what we are seeing now is very much Franks usual style albeit with Kulu and Solanke etc it will help be executed better.

The only question is whether Frank is confident and good enough to deviate from that style at Spurs. Because that style worked at Brentford as teams were happy to come onto them most weeks. At Spurs most teams sit back, it's no coincidence we've only looked really good against City and a half baked PSG who look to be front footed and dominate.

If he doesn't switch it up then this will just be another Jose/Conte era and we will be back to the drawing board within a couple of seasons. I really hope he can make the step up as he is very likeable....

 

[billyiddo]

Can you name a time in recent history that the club and fans have been patient and given something time?

2 years of Ange ball

 

[Bishop]

Unfortunately Frank seems obssessed with Odobert. I don't think he's done nearly enough to not warrant giving Richy a run out there...

I don't think he's obsessed with Odobert at all. He's tried various options trying to get something to work. Remember we started the season with Johnson out there, then a run of Tel getting the minutes, he even tried Kudus there for a half and now it's Odobert. Odobert's getting the mini run because he's done the best out of those tried so far but truly none have really impressed and if anyone were to actually really perform they'd get the position.

On the topic of Richy out there like Bedford says, that's really where he's played the majority of his career. I don't think he's a long term solution but we don't have a long term solution really.

The semi frustrating thing is none of this is unexpected. We knew our attack was poor and has been for multiple years but we just seemed unwilling or maybe blind to the absolute need to address it. I've been banging this drum for bloody years along with some others at this point.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't think he's obsessed with Odobert at all. He's tried various options trying to get something to work. Remember we started the season with Johnson out there, then a run of Tel getting the minutes, he even tried Kudus there for a half and now it's Odobert. Odobert's getting the mini run because he's done the best out of those tried so far but truly none have really impressed and if anyone were to actually really perform they'd get the position.

On the topic of Richy out there like Bedford says, that's really where he's played the majority of his career. I don't think he's a long term solution but we don't have a long term solution really.

The semi frustrating thing is none of this is unexpected. We knew our attack was poor and has been for multiple years but we just seemed unwilling or maybe blind to the absolute need to address it. I've been banging this drum for bloody years along with some others at this point.

Scariest thing I’ve just heard ks midweek the CM didn’t play one pass to Bergvall
Last weekend they played 3 to Xavi
So it’s even clearer the plan is to go wide, wide, wide
And down the left we have a kid and a right footed left back
It’s so broken
I know your no Johnson fan but at least he gets goals
If we want to be different .. and it feels like a waste Xavi there may be an option until January

 

[tommysvr]

2 years of Ange ball

Thanks for proving my point. 1 year when we finished 5th, above expectations. And the 2nd year when we won a European trophy. And yet still he was sacked.

The last 6 months in the league were rubbish, and fans like you could barely fudging get through it. 6 months!

 

[carl]

Thanks for proving my point. 1 year when we finished 5th, above expectations. And the 2nd year when we won a European trophy. And yet still he was sacked.

The last 6 months in the league were rubbish, and fans like you could barely fudging get through it. 6 months!

He has 4 wins in his last 25 league games between us and Forest. Not sure what point has been proved.

And it wasn't the last 6 months, it was the last 18 months

 

[tommysvr]

He has 4 wins in his last 25 league games between us and Forest. Not sure what point has been proved.

And it wasn't the last 6 months, it was the last 18 months

What the fudge do Forest have to do with anything?

You decided he was no good after 6-12 months. Thanks again for proving the point, Carl.

 

[Robspur12]

TF doesn't have a striker or a settled midfield playmaker like Maddison. Plus he's been here 5 minutes.

 

[Robspur12]

He's not wrong. Literally every manager comes in and implements their style from the beginning. It's often the case you have to go through a period of pain with this style and then the players become more accustomed to it, but what we are seeing now is very much Franks usual style albeit with Kulu and Solanke etc it will help be executed better.

The only question is whether Frank is confident and good enough to deviate from that style at Spurs. Because that style worked at Brentford as teams were happy to come onto them most weeks. At Spurs most teams sit back, it's no coincidence we've only looked really good against City and a half baked PSG who look to be front footed and dominate.

If he doesn't switch it up then this will just be another Jose/Conte era and we will be back to the drawing board within a couple of seasons. I really hope he can make the step up as he is very likeable....

I agree with you on many things. But Brentford last season were not just a sit back and invite pressure team. That is doing them a major disservice. Their tactics were quite fluid depending on the opposition. In fact it's worth looking at some tactical analyses of Brentford, there are some good ones online.

 

[Daisuk]

That first bit is very fair. Villarreal, Bodo, Monaco… in fact I actually sat watching the Monaco game thinking it very much had a Europa league tie vibe to it.

I've felt that with all our CL games thus far, they've all felt like EL games.

Agree with Ricky2tricky here - it's hard to understand why it is so difficult for very capable footballers to make relatively quick and precise passes between them. It must come down to team chemistry and confidence in their roles. When you got one player trying to do what he is instructed to do not quite as he should, then a second player not able to do his thing quite like he should and so on, passes and movement is terrible, and it snowballs and multiplies and they all look brick.

 

[carl]

What the fudge do Forest have to do with anything?

You decided he was no good after 6-12 months. Thanks again for proving the point, Carl.

Youre quite an angry little man aren't you!

 

[Benny_Lad]

Exactly!!!!!

I like Odobert but there’s no end product
He played his best game for us Sunday and yet Brennan came on and had a shot within 5 minutes
He isn’t where we need him yet and the prem isn’t one for experimenting to allow players to grow unless your Brentford or Brighton

This is what I meant by doing things on the cheap. We didn’t need to sign Tel and Odobert. That was a ball drop by whoever made that decision. One was enough to provide back up and develop. Then you need to go big on an established player. Semenyo showed a lot last season - plenty more than Odo or Tel….and it was obvious it wasn’t his ceiling. Now we are seeing him kick on again. Considering the price of Mbuemo and Cunha. 50-60 would have been enough.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

This is what I meant by doing things on the cheap. We didn’t need to sign Tel and Odobert. That was a ball drop by whoever made that decision. One was enough to provide back up and develop. Then you need to go big on an established player. Semenyo showed a lot last season - plenty more than Odo or Tel….and it was obvious it wasn’t his ceiling. Now we are seeing him kick on again. Considering the price of Mbuemo and Cunha. 50-60 would have been enough.

Maybe the new ownership set will fund some of those ones

 

[thfcsteff]

Scariest thing I’ve just heard ks midweek the CM didn’t play one pass to Bergvall
Last weekend they played 3 to Xavi
So it’s even clearer the plan is to go wide, wide, wide
And down the left we have a kid and a right footed left back
It’s so broken
I know your no Johnson fan but at least he gets goals
If we want to be different .. and it feels like a waste Xavi there may be an option until January

Indeed.
Milo sent me some stats in that regard. :-(

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Indeed.
Milo sent me some stats in that regard. :-(

Scary reading
But shows there is a plan
Just not a plan in a fan of for sure
I actually the ink it’s a plan that can be dealt with very easily too but again, that’s for Frank to sort

 

[Benny_Lad]

Scariest thing I’ve just heard ks midweek the CM didn’t play one pass to Bergvall
Last weekend they played 3 to Xavi
So it’s even clearer the plan is to go wide, wide, wide
And down the left we have a kid and a right footed left back
It’s so broken
I know your no Johnson fan but at least he gets goals
If we want to be different .. and it feels like a waste Xavi there may be an option until January

But what I couldn’t understand is we worked it wide many times and refused the crossing chance. What’s the plan!?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

But what I couldn’t understand is we worked it wide many times and refused the crossing chance. What’s the plan!?

Pass
Sorry that’s not a joke
I don’t know
I’ve said it repeatedly and I get told I’m being negative, but it’s Sunday league football
Play it to the best player and hope he does some magic