Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[ricky2tricky4city]

But we dont pass well

Technically we are once again not executing even simple passes properly. That is undeniable.

We are lucky to see any two touch, let alone any one touch passing at the moment. Stop. Look. Assess. Turn. Look. Stop etc. then often the safe pass, probably because any progressive pass option has been covered by now. Yeah I suppose relationships are building?

On a wider note...One thing I find baffling or at least a conundrum is the ability of top players to feel nervous, unconfident and lacking in belief when it comes to the relative simple task of passing and moving.
The reason I say this, is because when we played Bodo this year their ability to make passing look easy, and I mean not just in the safe areas of the pitch, but all over, astounded me. These are a gaggle of players brought together way up in the artic circle. Hardly a desirable place to play or earn big money, yet even they can make the game look so smooth and simple. Yes, their coach has had them for a long time BUT it just goes to show that even that far down the scale it must be mostly a mentality thing. And you might think they'd only play with such personality in their own league, but they don't, they play just the same whether it's us, Roma, Lazio, Porto.
What would then ultimately limit them is their ability but what they do prove is the level of ability to carry out fluid passing doesn't have to be that high.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We are lucky to see any two touch, let alone any one touch passing at the moment. Stop. Look. Assess. Turn. Look. Stop etc. then often the safe pass, probably because any progressive pass option has been covered by now.

On a wider note...One thing I find baffling or at least a conundrum is the ability of top players to feel nervous, unconfident and lacking in belief when it comes to the relative simple task of passing and moving.
The reason I say this, is because when we played Bodo this year their ability to make passing look easy, and I mean not just in the safe areas of the pitch, but all over, astounded me. These are a gaggle of players brought together way up in the artic circle. Hardly a desirable place to play or earn big money, yet even they can make the game look so smooth and simple. Yes, their coach has had them for a long time BUT it just goes to show that even that far down the scale it must be mostly a mentality thing. And you might think they'd only play with such personality in their own league, but they don't, they play just the same whether it's us, Roma, Lazio, Porto.
What would then ultimately limit them is their ability but what they do prove is the level of ability to carry out fluid passing doesn't have to be that high.

Movement and speed.
Good teams pass well
Great teams connect well before the pass
We’re no where near that
That’s coaching and being brave with the ball and movement

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Feels strange to me for a manager to have 'step 1' to implement his style. From what I remember of Frank's Brentford team what we are seeing now IS the style and not just 'step 1'.

From what I've seen so far I think Frank needs to realise that he is no longer at a small club like Brentford and has to deploy a more attacking gameplan by default, only reverting to 'Brentford ball' against certain teams or in certain situations in games.

I really agree with this. I can’t think of another manager that has a similar ‘step 1’ approach where they end of working on a possession game later on. I think a lot of the more pragmatic or flexible managers (ranging from say Moyes to Silva) just are what they are. It’s not as if their styles drastically evolve.

I think with Frank the idea that he evolved gradually with Brentford is an interesting one, and I get it in the sense that they progressed from newly promoted side, to established side, after being a better team in the league below. So when he’s been ‘the better team’ he’s shown he would play more of a possession game. But what is his view of Spurs in the hierarchy? Does he actually think we’re not really good enough to play more of a possession game? Where does the squad need to get to for him to be comfortable doing that?

 

[Rafa87]

The teams we have played in the CL so far this campaign have been reasonably Europa League quality IMO. We have also had a pretty easy start to the season in terms of league and cup fixtures (the tough bit of the season started against Villa last weekend).

I am similar to you in hoping for European qualification, though I want that to be Europa League. We actually have a reasonable chance of winning that competition if we qualify for it. Though, I really do think that you have to sacrifice league position to do so (as we did last season).

I agree 100% that we need another option for left back (and have said that for a long while). Spence defends the left flank well but our attacking threat is vastly reduced when he plays at left back because he is largely unable to go on the outside (which Frank's tactics demand). Regarding the CF position, I was quietly enthused by Muani's performance when he came on Wednesday night. He actually seemed to be able to compete with the opposition's defenders, get on the ball and bring others into play, things that we don't get from Richarlison, who currently looks to me as though he is going through the motions as opposed to giving his all.

That first bit is very fair. Villarreal, Bodo, Monaco… in fact I actually sat watching the Monaco game thinking it very much had a Europa league tie vibe to it.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The teams we have played in the CL so far this campaign have been reasonably Europa League quality IMO. We have also had a pretty easy start to the season in terms of league and cup fixtures (the tough bit of the season started against Villa last weekend).

I am similar to you in hoping for European qualification, though I want that to be Europa League. We actually have a reasonable chance of winning that competition if we qualify for it. Though, I really do think that you have to sacrifice league position to do so (as we did last season).

I agree 100% that we need another option for left back (and have said that for a long while). Spence defends the left flank well but our attacking threat is vastly reduced when he plays at left back because he is largely unable to go on the outside (which Frank's tactics demand). Regarding the CF position, I was quietly enthused by Muani's performance when he came on Wednesday night. He actually seemed to be able to compete with the opposition's defenders, get on the ball and bring others into play, things that we don't get from Richarlison, who currently looks to me as though he is going through the motions as opposed to giving his all.

Muani will be sound once match fit
We need frank to stick with him and I think use Richy more sparingly
The left back issue is so much of an issue when we’re not inverting and is quite crippling in this style of play

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I really agree with this. I can’t think of another manager that has a similar ‘step 1’ approach where they end of working on a possession game later on. I think a lot of the more pragmatic or flexible managers (ranging from say Moyes to Silva) just are what they are. It’s not as if their styles drastically evolve.

I think with Frank the idea that he evolved gradually with Brentford is an interesting one, and I get it in the sense that they progressed from newly promoted side, to established side, after being a better team in the league below. So when he’s been ‘the better team’ he’s shown he would play more of a possession game. But what is his view of Spurs in the hierarchy? Does he actually think we’re not really good enough to play more of a possession game? Where does the squad need to get to for him to be comfortable doing that?

How much was him evolving vs their team having better players
Hard to tell
I like him but I want to see him manage Tottenham, not Brentford mk2
I do think he will get it
Seeing managers punch up a level is a good thing and I’d like him to be one for that here

 

[thfcsteff]

We are lucky to see any two touch, let alone any one touch passing at the moment. Stop. Look. Assess. Turn. Look. Stop etc. then often the safe pass, probably because any progressive pass option has been covered by now. Yeah I suppose relationships are building?

On a wider note...One thing I find baffling or at least a conundrum is the ability of top players to feel nervous, unconfident and lacking in belief when it comes to the relative simple task of passing and moving.
The reason I say this, is because when we played Bodo this year their ability to make passing look easy, and I mean not just in the safe areas of the pitch, but all over, astounded me. These are a gaggle of players brought together way up in the artic circle. Hardly a desirable place to play or earn big money, yet even they can make the game look so smooth and simple. Yes, their coach has had them for a long time BUT it just goes to show that even that far down the scale it must be mostly a mentality thing. And you might think they'd only play with such personality in their own league, but they don't, they play just the same whether it's us, Roma, Lazio, Porto.
What would then ultimately limit them is their ability but what they do prove is the level of ability to carry out fluid passing doesn't have to be that high.

I think the pressure on modern players is insane. One mistake can lead to sustained abuse; several and it can get dangerous. I think there should be wide concerns for the mental health of Premier League players (championship too) because the pressures plus sheer amount of games being played are reaching a breaking point. I think Bodo might be a bit of an outlier in so much as they've had the same coach for 8 years or so, which I think allows a confidence?
It is frustrating in our case because we have some players who can do some great things and I just don't think we're using them properly.

 

[thfcsteff]

Muani will be sound once match fit
We need frank to stick with him and I think use Richy more sparingly
The left back issue is so much of an issue when we’re not inverting and is quite crippling in this style of play

Having argued against Richy on the left on this forum, I am going to football hypocrite and say we should put him on the left!!!!!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Having argued against Richy on the left on this forum, I am going to football hypocrite and say we should put him on the left!!!!!

I think with our limitations there it’s not the worst idea
It’s also the place he has spent most of his career

 

[thfcsteff]

I think with our limitations there it’s not the worst idea
It’s also the place he has spent most of his career

Unfortunately Frank seems obssessed with Odobert. I don't think he's done nearly enough to not warrant giving Richy a run out there...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Unfortunately Frank seems obssessed with Odobert. I don't think he's done nearly enough to not warrant giving Richy a run out there...

I like Odobert but there’s no end product
He played his best game for us Sunday and yet Brennan came on and had a shot within 5 minutes
He isn’t where we need him yet and the prem isn’t one for experimenting to allow players to grow unless your Brentford or Brighton

 

[thfcsteff]

I like Odobert but there’s no end product
He played his best game for us Sunday and yet Brennan came on and had a shot within 5 minutes
He isn’t where we need him yet and the prem isn’t one for experimenting to allow players to grow unless your Brentford or Brighton

Exactly!!!!!

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I think the pressure on modern players is insane. One mistake can lead to sustained abuse; several and it can get dangerous. I think there should be wide concerns for the mental health of Premier League players (championship too) because the pressures plus sheer amount of games being played are reaching a breaking point. I think Bodo might be a bit of an outlier in so much as they've had the same coach for 8 years or so, which I think allows a confidence?
It is frustrating in our case because we have some players who can do some great things and I just don't think we're using them properly.

You can add managers to those concerns

 

[glasgowspur]

Movement and speed.
Good teams pass well
Great teams connect well before the pass
We’re no where near that
That’s coaching and being brave with the ball and movement

The counters on Frank's whiteboard move more than our players, in fact I'm wondering if Frank needs to explain to them just because the counters don't move doesn't mean they shouldn't.
We're like a subbuteo team, stand about as the ball gets knocked around them.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You can add managers to those concerns

It’s intense and everything is scrutinised and analysed
They are machines now more than ever
My nephew is analyst at derby and it’s constant with kids from 11 upwards. Everything is checked and reviewed for each player

 

[thfcsteff]

You can add managers to those concerns

It's really prescient that you mentioned that, because I already see small signs that TF is feeling the strain. I think he's a great guy (top ) and it should indeed be a concern what could happen to him, because this is a different pressure cooker altogether. He has always been proactive on mental health, and I'd love to know if he has a sports psych working with the players like he did at Brentford?

 

[Mikey10]

I can’t actually believe the fallacy that Ange played good, exciting football still exists tbh but I think that’s set in mythology forever now.

I think playing in the Chanpions League this season has skewed the idea of how good we actually are for some, I don’t think we’re currently Champions league level personally, we’re there because we won the Europa League (which is one thing I will always thank Ange for just for balance) which let’s be honest, is a very different set of teams with a different quality level.

In terms of consistently playing in a way that would actually achieve us CL through the league I really do think we’re some way off. I’m expectant and ok with us finishing about 7th this season, I just want European qualification, so EL or ECL. We should be playing in Europe every year, and as much as I’d love us to be in the CL I think we’re have to be realistic about what this team is consistently capable of.

We need a LB, we’re absolutely crying out for a real quality option at both LW and ST, and honestly I’d look for an additional option for the middle who can actually link that solid base with our attacking players with some quality on the ball. A lot of people are still caught in the mentality of the last 20 years, I think we need some time, patience and to see how the new set up with Vini, Frank, his coaching team, Paratici and Lange all shakes out. We’ve made a lot of changes off the pitch and that needs some time and windows for a new strategy to pay off.

We were absolutely rotten the other night, and rightfully called on it. I do think Frank, given time, can really achieve something here, and I completely get that after so many near misses and false dawns it’s hard to talk about having patience again. However I think we simply have to be patient here, and give it all time for the skilled people we have in place to work it all out. I’m hopeful we can get some business done in January, and I also think we will see a difference when Solanke, Kulusevski and some others are back.

Mods, please can we have a button which allows someone to like a post 100 times?

 

[tommysvr]

We were absolutely rotten the other night, and rightfully called on it. I do think Frank, given time, can really achieve something here, and I completely get that after so many near misses and false dawns it’s hard to talk about having patience again. However I think we simply have to be patient here, and give it all time for the skilled people we have in place to work it all out. I’m hopeful we can get some business done in January, and I also think we will see a difference when Solanke, Kulusevski and some others are back.

Can you name a time in recent history that the club and fans have been patient and given something time?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Can you name a time in recent history that the club and fans have been patient and given something time?

Last weekend

I think fans were very patient/tolerant with how long Danso was taking to dry the ball.

 

[braineclipse]

Feels strange to me for a manager to have 'step 1' to implement his style. From what I remember of Frank's Brentford team what we are seeing now IS the style and not just 'step 1'.

From what I've seen so far I think Frank needs to realise that he is no longer at a small club like Brentford and has to deploy a more attacking gameplan by default, only reverting to 'Brentford ball' against certain teams or in certain situations in games.

I hope you're wrong. But I definitely see your perspective as valid.