Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Bedfordspurs]

That's one way to look at it, sure. The other way to look at it -

Poch finished just 3 pts behind Ange (iirc) despite getting to both a Cup final and a Cup semifinal in his first season, against Ange who got dumped out at basically the first opportunity twice and had nothing but free midweeks for 90% of the season.

Moreover, Poch's team showed what you would expect from a team that is exposed to tough, but promising tactics/styles of play - an initially tough time, but then constant improvement leading to a very good end to the season.

Ange started off brilliantly, and then got worse and worse - by the end we were a walking shambles even as he had a largely fit squad to choose from.

Taken together, the edge goes to Poch for me.

That’s your bias though
Could easily be flipped and say they actually beat one premier league team to make the cup final without needing penalties
And best one premier league team in the fa cup in a replay
That’s actual facts by the way
Oh and that’s with Poch inheriting a squad that cost around €1b iirc in the last two seasons
And despite having that squad he finished behind little old Ange who apparently has only done it in minor leagues amd for some is clearly out of his depth..
Poch is a great coach and shouldn’t have been sacked but he didn’t actually achieve anything more than age because he finished below him in the competition where it’s like for like

 

[DubaiSpur]

Is getting to cup finals and semi finals an acomplishment then? How many have we done under levy?

In the case of finals at least.. more than not getting to them? They pale in comparison to actually winning something, which our winless wonder will never do, but it's logical to say getting to finals beats not getting to them at all.

The other factor to think about is that it makes the league campaign harder. Poch had to deal with, what, 8-10 more games than us? Still only finished 3 pts off us. Would say that gives him the edge mate.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

In the case of finals at least.. more than not getting to them? They pale in comparison to actually winning something, which our winless wonder will never do, but it's logical to say getting to finals beats not getting to them at all.

The other factor to think about is that it makes the league campaign harder. Poch had to deal with, what, 8-10 more games than us? Still only finished 3 pts off us. Would say that gives him the edge mate.

8-10 games against weaker opposition
Meant more games to actually get his coaching across
Come one man… try harder
I guarantee Ange would have loved games against boro and Blackburn to get his methods across

 

[DubaiSpur]

That’s your bias though
Could easily be flipped and say they actually beat one premier league team to make the cup final without needing penalties
And best one premier league team in the fa cup in a replay
That’s actual facts by the way
Oh and that’s with Poch inheriting a squad that cost around €1b iirc in the last two seasons
And despite having that squad he finished behind little old Ange who apparently has only done it in minor leagues amd for some is clearly out of his depth..
Poch is a great coach and shouldn’t have been sacked but he didn’t actually achieve anything more than age because he finished below him in the competition where it’s like for like

Well, I freely admit I do have a bias mate - I never wanted Poch sacked, and still think every manager we've hired since is a downgrade, Ange included.

But I'd like to think that doesn't mean I can't compare Poch and Ange's seasons reasonably. In this case, I think in total, they faced three Premier League sides in their campaigns leading up to the fina/semi-final. Same number we did. But they won their three to advance. We won 1, lost two, went out long before they did.

As for Chelsea's squad, yes they cost a billion.

Ours cost £750 million, I think. Yes that £250 million makes a huge difference, but let's not suggest Ange was working with Luton levels of quality here.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I guarantee Ange would have loved games against boro and Blackburn to get his methods across

Or he would have lost them, like he lost to Fulham, Wolves, etc. No way to tell hypotheticals mate.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Or he would have lost them, like he lost to Fulham, Wolves, etc. No way to tell hypotheticals mate.

Poch did lose to boro
That’s a fact too

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Well, I freely admit I do have a bias mate - I never wanted Poch sacked, and still think every manager we've hired since is a downgrade, Ange included.

But I'd like to think that doesn't mean I can't compare Poch and Ange's seasons reasonably. In this case, I think in total, they faced three Premier League sides in their campaigns leading up to the fina/semi-final. Same number we did. But they won their three to advance. We won 1, lost two, went out long before they did.

As for Chelsea's squad, yes they cost a billion.

Ours cost £750 million, I think. Yes that £250 million makes a huge difference, but let's not suggest Ange was working with Luton levels of quality here.

I not but your suggesting Poch was working with novices almost by inference

Poch had a huge squad and that showed with the amount of changes he made. He also had loads of injuries to deal with and really struggled until late in the season when things went well. I don’t know why they sacked him. Maybe it was because he finished below us …

You’re technically right in that they beat Brighton in the lesgue cup. Drew with Saudi Sportswashing Machine and went through on penalties and lost against boro and Liverpool
In the fa cup they beat villa after a replay which you don’t get in the league cup of course
Some may be happy with that but most would see that as actually very average

And their squad didn’t cost €1B … that was just the transfers in the last 3 windows and didn’t include players like sterling or chilwell or others they already had …

 

[DubaiSpur]

Poch did lose to boro
That’s a fact too

Sure. Lost 1-0 in the first leg, destroyed them 6-1 in the return, got to the final....all facts mate.

Depends on which ones you think are noteworthy, I suppose. For me, Poch dealt with more distractions and more games, and still got to a final and a semi-final while finishing 3 pts behind Ange who had no distractions all season and stumbled out of both cups early. To me, that gives him an edge over Ange in terms of who had the better season. Not by much mind, but still enough to call it. Your opinion may differ.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Sure. Lost 1-0 in the first leg, destroyed them 6-1 in the return, got to the final....all facts mate.

Depends on which ones you think are noteworthy, I suppose. For me, Poch dealt with more distractions and more games, and still got to a final and a semi-final while finishing 3 pts behind Ange who had no distractions all season and stumbled out of both cups early. To me, that gives him an edge over Ange in terms of who had the better season. Not by much mind, but still enough to call it. Your opinion may differ.

But he did lose to championship opposition. The noise off that was horrendous and was deemed ti be a massive embarrassment. That’s stumbling in a cup when you have a gimme. He was lucky to have another leg Tom win and even then they were getting laughed at

I’d say losing in cups to top level opposition can happen. It’s why cup football is a lottery sometimes.

I don’t think even a Chelsea fan would agree with you. They have ended the season trophieless and in the Conference. Even UEFA would argue that’s an inferior season

 

[DubaiSpur]

I don’t know why they sacked him. Maybe it was because he finished below us …

Dunno mate. I'm personally overjoyed they sacked him, because he had them purring and they were looking dangerous at the end. I doubt anyone could say the same about us - we looked a shambles by the end.

That's the other thing that I think gives the edge to Poch this season - as time wore on and his team adjusted to his methods, they got better. As time wore on and we adopted Ange's methods, we got worse. To me, there's a mildly worrying implication there.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I don’t think even a Chelsea fan would agree with you. They have ended the season trophieless and in the Conference. Even UEFA would argue that’s an inferior season

I don't think they would agree with me, because they're macaronic gorillas. I don't expect them to.

But in terms of trophyless seasons, we both had them. We got into the Europa League, they got into the Conference League - we both play on Thursdays. It's two bald men fighting over a comb - neither is exactly box office.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't think they would agree with me, because they're macaronic gorillas. I don't expect them to.

But in terms of trophyless seasons, we both had them. We got into the Europa League, they got into the Conference League - we both play on Thursdays. It's two bald men fighting over a comb - neither is exactly box office.

Lets simplify your results in cups argument then
We didn’t lose any games in the league cup and lost to the same team as them in the fa cup by the same score
If your serious about comparing European comps now you will soon claim winning the championship is better than winning nothing

 

[Lilbaz]

Poch did well at chelsea in the end. The club is a mess. He wasn't sacked for results on the pitch. At least he shouldn't have been.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Lets simplify your results in cups argument then
We didn’t lose any games in the league cup and lost to the same team as them in the fa cup by the same score
If your serious about comparing European comps now you will soon claim winning the championship is better than winning nothing

We didn't lose any games in the League Cup, but went out regardless. A curious thing. Almost like we drew the match, but limply lost the tie.

As for comparing European comps, like I said, there's no great difference between Europa and Conference League. To use ENIC's marker of choice, prize money - winning the Conference League gets you €5m. Winning the Europa League gets you €8.6M.

The jump from there to the Champions League, where winning gets you €20M, is huge.

I'm not saying it isn't worth winning, not at all. But for clubs our size (and Chelsea's size), the difference between qualifying for Europa and Europa Conference is pretty minor. Neither signifies a successful season by itself. You need more. Chelsea got to 6th, also got to a final. We only have 5th place. Which is better?

I'd argue it's a toss up.

 

[Lilbaz]

We didn't lose any games in the League Cup, but went out regardless. A curious thing. Almost like we drew the match, but limply lost the tie.

As for comparing European comps, like I said, there's no great difference between Europa and Conference League. To use ENIC's marker of choice, prize money - winning the Conference League gets you €5m. Winning the Europa League gets you €8.6M.

The jump from there to the Champions League, where winning gets you €20M, is huge.

I'm not saying it isn't worth winning, not at all. But for clubs our size (and Chelsea's size), the difference between qualifying for Europa and Europa Conference is pretty minor. Neither signifies a successful season by itself. You need more. Chelsea got to 6th, also got to a final. We only have 5th place. Which is better?

I'd argue it's a toss up.

You also have money from just participating. Then each round. Winning the europa gets you in the cl.

Uefa fudged european football with the cl. They should have given half the tv money to the federations to split amoungst the clubs.

Also it's all changed from next season. New format. New prize money. More games.

 

[harr1984]

Is getting to cup finals and semi finals an acomplishment then? How many have we done under levy?

That's clearly not what he's saying. The point is Chelsea finished just 3pts behind us despite having a load more games and interruptions going deep in both cup competitions whilst we had free weeks pretty much every week. It's a fair point....

 

[harr1984]

That’s your bias though
Could easily be flipped and say they actually beat one premier league team to make the cup final without needing penalties
And best one premier league team in the fa cup in a replay
That’s actual facts by the way
Oh and that’s with Poch inheriting a squad that cost around €1b iirc in the last two seasons
And despite having that squad he finished behind little old Ange who apparently has only done it in minor leagues amd for some is clearly out of his depth..
Poch is a great coach and shouldn’t have been sacked but he didn’t actually achieve anything more than age because he finished below him in the competition where it’s like for like

I'm not sure mentioning how much Chelsea's squad cost has any relevance when they are ridiculously over spending on any player they can get their hands - that doesn't signify how good the players at Pochs disposal actually were. Also there were players bought that Poch didn't want and this built up to why he left.

It was both Poch and Anges first season and they both had promising debut seasons for their new clubs . But had Ange got us to a cup final, a semi final and finish 6th 3 points behind Chelsea I guarantee you'd be arguing we had a better season than Chelsea....

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I'm not sure mentioning how much Chelsea's squad cost has any relevance when they are ridiculously over spending on any player they can get their hands - that doesn't signify how good the players at Pochs disposal actually were. Also there were players bought that Poch didn't want and this built up to why he left.

It was both Poch and Anges first season and they both had promising debut seasons for their new clubs . But had Ange got us to a cup final, a semi final and finish 6th 3 points behind Chelsea I guarantee you'd be arguing we had a better season than Chelsea....

Why would I?
It would have meant he lost more important games which isn’t success

 

[braineclipse]

Dunno mate. I'm personally overjoyed they sacked him, because he had them purring and they were looking dangerous at the end. I doubt anyone could say the same about us - we looked a shambles by the end.

That's the other thing that I think gives the edge to Poch this season - as time wore on and his team adjusted to his methods, they got better. As time wore on and we adopted Ange's methods, we got worse. To me, there's a mildly worrying implication there.

Don't really have an opinion on comparing the season of Poch and Ange. I'm quite pleased that Chelsea sacked him too though. They'll probably be good next season anyway, they have a lot of good players. But I think Poch was building towards something and lacked a few ingredients.

I think shambles is rather harsh on Ange/us though. We've seen shambles, that wasn't it. For me, accept that we can use words differently.

I agree on the mildly worrying implication. Certainly would have been great if we had been able to regain our early season form at some point.

Personally I think that will soon be seen as no more than a temporary mildly worrying implication.

 

[Bishop]

That's one way to look at it, sure. The other way to look at it -

Poch finished just 3 pts behind Ange (iirc) despite getting to both a Cup final and a Cup semifinal in his first season, against Ange who got dumped out at basically the first opportunity twice and had nothing but free midweeks for 90% of the season.

Moreover, Poch's team showed what you would expect from a team that is exposed to tough, but promising tactics/styles of play - an initially tough time, but then constant improvement leading to a very good end to the season.

Ange started off brilliantly, and then got worse and worse - by the end we were a walking shambles even as he had a largely fit squad to choose from.

Taken together, the edge goes to Poch for me.

The Poch era is done. He wouldn't have done any better here if he had come back. We aren't the same club that he left, we don't have the same players and frankly some of his tactical decisions and player selections this season have been tragic.

Hes not an elite coach that can work in any context, he just worked in the 2015+ spurs context with an all time great striker in Kane. I really liked Poch and I would not have sacked him at the time, but I would not go back to him. It would just tarnish his legacy because he would not do as well at all.

Football is a never ending march forwards. Standing still is actually going backwards and going for Poch again in 2024 is going backwards.