Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think there's far too much risk to the general team spirit and behaviour to bend over for a player like that.

Just like Mankini lost the respect of his players after he took Tevez back, so would AVB.

If we're ever to become better than the sum of our parts (and I hope we do, because I don't like finishing 6th) then we need our players to put the team before themselves. I don't believe Ade fits into that regime.

I think AVB's treatment of Adebayor may actually have had the opposite effect on team spirit. It seemed that he was a popular member of the squad and the other players knew how good he was so thought he should be playing. After AVB went I remember a few stories from players stating that they were glad that he was playing again also expressing confusion as to why he wasn't playing before.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Well in that case let's ensure that we first get players that are:

a) good enough.
and
b) suit the system that we are trying to play.

Until that point let's play the players that tick both of those boxes and pick up the best possible results to get us to the next transfer window in order to address that.

Even if allowing the arsehole players to get away with whatever they like ruins the respect the other players have for the manager? At the cost of a culture of hard work and playing for the team?

There are only a few players in the world that good in my eyes and Ade's way short of that, even when he can be bothered to play.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Even if allowing the arsehole players to get away with whatever they like ruins the respect the other players have for the manager? At the cost of a culture of hard work and playing for the team?

There are only a few players in the world that good in my eyes and Ade's way short of that, even when he can be bothered to play.

As far as I can tell the only 'crime' that Adebayor committed was going off to Africa (with the club's permission) to attend his brother's funeral. I don't know whether or not AVB expected him to shun that and instead stay in England and carry on with pre-season training? But it seemed as though when Adebayor returned he was treated rather poorly and things changed for the worse after that. Respect is a two way thing and it can never really be enforced, just earned.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

As far as I can tell the only 'crime' that Adebayor committed was going off to Africa (with the club's permission) to attend his brother's funeral. I don't know whether or not AVB expected him to shun that and instead stay in England and carry on with pre-season training? But it seemed as though when Adebayor returned he was treated rather poorly and things changed for the worse after that. Respect is a two way thing and it can never really be enforced, just earned.

I'm pretty sure that was after having already done the same when he swanned off to the ACN and after criticising the manager.

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

didn't he come back from the ACN about a month after they got knocked out with some story about not being able to get a flight

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think there's far too much risk to the general team spirit and behaviour to bend over for a player like that.

Just like Mankini lost the respect of his players after he took Tevez back, so would AVB.

If we're ever to become better than the sum of our parts (and I hope we do, because I don't like finishing 6th) then we need our players to put the team before themselves. I don't believe Ade fits into that regime.

Which is why he chases back to help defend and goes wide left/right to create space or work for balls played down the line. A player that puts himself first is one that hangs around the 6 yard box expecting the ball played to him without having to move, something I just don't see him doing.

 

[sc25]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Even if allowing the arsehole players to get away with whatever they like ruins the respect the other players have for the manager? At the cost of a culture of hard work and playing for the team?

There are only a few players in the world that good in my eyes and Ade's way short of that, even when he can be bothered to play.

If we're ever to become better than the sum of our parts (and I hope we do, because I don't like finishing 6th) then we need our players to put the team before themselves. I don't believe Ade fits into that regime.

So how will you feel if LVG (someone you seem to have huge respect for and are a huge fan of) comes in, decides to keep Ade and plays him?

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So how will you feel if LVG (someone you seem to have huge respect for and are a huge fan of) comes in, decides to keep Ade and plays him?

I honestly don't think he'll get a chance. I believe City stop topping up Ade's already ridiculous wages - I sincerely doubt we'll up his contract to make up the difference.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It's not the same at all. I have no issue at all with AVB wanting to sell Adebayor. The issue I have is with his treatment of him when a sale wasn't possible. Do you think if having tried to sell Beckham, and no other club wanting to pay the money for him and/or the player refusing to take a transfer that Ferguson would've simply consigned the player to the scrap heap? Or do you think he would've tried to find a way to reintegrate him into the team for the best of the club and their results?

AVB is trying to establish authority. The guy questioned him in private, fine. If he then questioned him in front of the team, knowing exactly what he is doing, the manager needs to not show weakness.

At the end of the day it comes down to choices. AVB knows about football. Ade knows something about football. Sherwood knows something about football. They are all capable, knowledgable people. But we're trying to build a club, and it comes down to who we decide to back. Ade will be able to make points, but if he doesn't fit in with the managers plans, it doesn't mean he has to be listened to.

If this happened at Man United, the manager would be backed 100%. And everyone at the club will know you do not try and get one over the manager. And they will therefore cultivate a spirit that allows them to pick up a silly amount of points from losing positions and in the dying moments of games. They will finish 6th or 7th this year but because they back their manager, they will have that chance to build something. We would never ever do that.

If you're trying to build something, you need to weed out the people that stand in the way of that. If Ade is a threat to AVB's authority, he needs to be removed, and we need to use players that will implement what he wants and who respect that authority. Because ultimately that authority will win us games if allowed to get to the point where it's built. It doesn't mean Ade doesn't have valid points himself, but just because they are valid it doesn't mean we need to listen to them or use them if it conflicts with the managers vision.

Ultimately we were not at the point where AVB was allowed to establish things as he wanted it. He still had some dissenting players in the squad who the club wouldn't sell. He was signed some that he didn't think suited. He lost his best player and the ones he did want were still settling into a new country. We could have decided to back AVB and ultimately I think it would have worked. But we only ever gave it a 50% shot before giving up.

Now we start again, and I hope some manager is given the chance to get things as they want it because otherwise, we will never progress. We will always tread water if the club is a mish mash of different visions pulling the strategy in all sorts of different directions.

 

[NWND]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

AVB is trying to establish authority. The guy questioned him in private, fine. If he then questioned him in front of the team, knowing exactly what he is doing, the manager needs to not show weakness.

At the end of the day it comes down to choices. AVB knows about football. Ade knows something about football. Sherwood knows something about football. They are all capable, knowledgable people. But we're trying to build a club, and it comes down to who we decide to back. Ade will be able to make points, but if he doesn't fit in with the managers plans, it doesn't mean he has to be listened to.

If this happened at Man United, the manager would be backed 100%. And everyone at the club will know you do not try and get one over the manager. And they will therefore cultivate a spirit that allows them to pick up a silly amount of points from losing positions and in the dying moments of games. They will finish 6th or 7th this year but because they back their manager, they will have that chance to build something. We would never ever do that.

If you're trying to build something, you need to weed out the people that stand in the way of that. If Ade is a threat to AVB's authority, he needs to be removed, and we need to use players that will implement what he wants and who respect that authority. Because ultimately that authority will win us games if allowed to get to the point where it's built. It doesn't mean Ade doesn't have valid points himself, but just because they are valid it doesn't mean we need to listen to them or use them if it conflicts with the managers vision.

Ultimately we were not at the point where AVB was allowed to establish things as he wanted it. He still had some dissenting players in the squad who the club wouldn't sell. He was signed some that he didn't think suited. He lost his best player and the ones he did want were still settling into a new country. We could have decided to back AVB and ultimately I think it would have worked. But we only ever gave it a 50% shot before giving up.

Now we start again, and I hope some manager is given the chance to get things as they want it because otherwise, we will never progress. We will always tread water if the club is a mish mash of different visions pulling the strategy in all sorts of different directions.

Good managers have to work with what they've got. Man Utd might be able to afford to be paying someone £100K to train with the reserves, we certainly cannot. Plus, he was our best striker and given he remained at the club past the transfer deadline, to not utilise him, was NOT in the CLUB's best interests and a the end of the day, nobody, not the players, not the manager, not the fans should be backed over and above THFC.

The whole Ade situation sums up AVB's worst side. Unable to manage PEOPLE effectively. It's like he needs people that see things exactly as he does, otherwise it doesn't work. The chances of every key member of staff at a major club doing that are remote, which is why he failed at Chelsea and why he failed at Spurs.

A good manager would have MANAGED Ade. Looks like AVB wasn't interested in doing so or interested in the struggle of bringing Ade round to his way of thinking.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

AVB is trying to establish authority. The guy questioned him in private, fine. If he then questioned him in front of the team, knowing exactly what he is doing, the manager needs to not show weakness.

At the end of the day it comes down to choices. AVB knows about football. Ade knows something about football. Sherwood knows something about football. They are all capable, knowledgable people. But we're trying to build a club, and it comes down to who we decide to back. Ade will be able to make points, but if he doesn't fit in with the managers plans, it doesn't mean he has to be listened to.

If this happened at Man United, the manager would be backed 100%. And everyone at the club will know you do not try and get one over the manager. And they will therefore cultivate a spirit that allows them to pick up a silly amount of points from losing positions and in the dying moments of games. They will finish 6th or 7th this year but because they back their manager, they will have that chance to build something. We would never ever do that.

If you're trying to build something, you need to weed out the people that stand in the way of that. If Ade is a threat to AVB's authority, he needs to be removed, and we need to use players that will implement what he wants and who respect that authority. Because ultimately that authority will win us games if allowed to get to the point where it's built. It doesn't mean Ade doesn't have valid points himself, but just because they are valid it doesn't mean we need to listen to them or use them if it conflicts with the managers vision.

Ultimately we were not at the point where AVB was allowed to establish things as he wanted it. He still had some dissenting players in the squad who the club wouldn't sell. He was signed some that he didn't think suited. He lost his best player and the ones he did want were still settling into a new country. We could have decided to back AVB and ultimately I think it would have worked. But we only ever gave it a 50% shot before giving up.

Now we start again, and I hope some manager is given the chance to get things as they want it because otherwise, we will never progress. We will always tread water if the club is a mish mash of different visions pulling the strategy in all sorts of different directions.

And if that someone is Sherwood?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

And if that someone is Sherwood?

If it's him I hope we (we as in the club) back him and give him a chance. Not say we're backing him but only really give him 50%.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Good managers have to work with what they've got. Man Utd might be able to afford to be paying someone £100K to train with the reserves, we certainly cannot. Plus, he was our best striker and given he remained at the club past the transfer deadline, to not utilise him, was NOT in the CLUB's best interests and a the end of the day, nobody, not the players, not the manager, not the fans should be backed over and above THFC.

The whole Ade situation sums up AVB's worst side. Unable to manage PEOPLE effectively. It's like he needs people that see things exactly as he does, otherwise it doesn't work. The chances of every key member of staff at a major club doing that are remote, which is why he failed at Chelsea and why he failed at Spurs.

A good manager would have MANAGED Ade. Looks like AVB wasn't interested in doing so or interested in the struggle of bringing Ade round to his way of thinking.

The authority AVB would have established would have been in the club's best interests if we backed him to establish it. Ade would have been short term plaster for a wound that needed long term healing.

AVB can easily manage people. He has no problems there. It doesn't mean that he needs to work with people that hold his vision back. If he's backed that vision is ultimately beneficial to us. Ade is someone that would hold us back from getting there. It's not about closing people down or running hard. It's about questionning a manager in private, getting an answer and deciding to take that same questionning infront of the group. We were going to build a team of players where the team ethic was more important than the individual, and where the manager's authority and vision is backed. Ade would not have suited.

It's about decision making. AVB has a vision, we employed him for that vision. Could he have used Ade? Of course. Could he have used Ade after his authority was publicly questioned? Of course. But sooner or later, the manager has to build what we wants to build and establish authority. He needs to be the one with the power. As I said, ultimately we decided not to let AVB get to the point where his vision was built, so we're starting again with someone else. I hope we give whoever the next person is the time to actually do it.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The authority AVB would have established would have been in the club's best interests if we backed him to establish it. Ade would have been short term plaster for a wound that needed long term healing.

AVB can easily manage people. He has no problems there. It doesn't mean that he needs to work with people that hold his vision back. If he's backed that vision is ultimately beneficial to us. Ade is someone that would hold us back from getting there. It's not about closing people down or running hard. It's about questionning a manager in private, getting an answer and deciding to take that same questionning infront of the group. We were going to build a team of players where the team ethic was more important than the individual, and where the manager's authority and vision is backed. Ade would not have suited.

It's about decision making. AVB has a vision, we employed him for that vision. Could he have used Ade? Of course. Could he have used Ade after his authority was publicly questioned? Of course. But sooner or later, the manager has to build what we wants to build and establish authority. He needs to be the one with the power. As I said, ultimately we decided not to let AVB get to the point where his vision was built, so we're starting again with someone else. I hope we give whoever the next person is the time to actually do it.

The club did back AVB over Ade, we tried to sell him in the summer but couldn't move him on. Once the window had closed, the smart thing to do would have been to try and make the best use of him that he could until the next window opened.

I think your second paragraph is more what you would like to be true rather than any reflection of reality. It is not just Ade, the following quote is from Lukaku

There is one person that I will never forgive for what he did to me - the previous coach. It's not just that. It was also the way he spoke to me and treated me. Right from the beginning, it was weird. I could not stand how he was treating me. I received no explanation. In training, he put me on the right or left wing. In training matches, I was a substitute with a shirt to keep swapping teams. I really learned nothing! I have told the club that too.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The club did back AVB over Ade, we tried to sell him in the summer but couldn't move him on. Once the window had closed, the smart thing to do would have been to try and make the best use of him that he could until the next window opened.

I think your second paragraph is more what you would like to be true rather than any reflection of reality. It is not just Ade, the following quote is from Lukaku

If Ade is disrupting and eroding AVB's authority then it absolutely isn't the smart thing to do to make use of him. If they backed him they would have backed his decision to keep him away from the first team.

If I wanted I could find plenty of quotes from players saying how AVB was great with them. I could also find plenty of quotes about all managers from players saying they were good or bad to them. It means nothing. The strange thing is though the examples against AVB are used in a 'this shows he absolutely cannot manage people' as if he's an overly statistical mildly autistic social depart, and in actual fact he is perfectly capable. But in management you have decisions to make and that means some people will be annoyed with them.

 

[metalgear]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

ade has a history of throwing tantrums and running foul of his managers, including more experienced ones who have eventually isolated and sold him.

 

[kanoute16]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If it's him I hope we (we as in the club) back him and give him a chance. Not say we're backing him but only really give him 50%.

If it is Sherwood I think we may as well accept that the Tottenham Hotspur we all once knew has gone! I really did not like AVB and his cautious brand of football but I'd have him back in a heart beat over TS. That is how little faith I have in Sherwood's ability to manage Spurs.

 

[DTA]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If it is Sherwood I think we may as well accept that the Tottenham Hotspur we all once knew has gone! I really did not like AVB and his cautious brand of football but I'd have him back in a heart beat over TS. That is how little faith I have in Sherwood's ability to manage Spurs.

Why when yts Tims results have been better, the football more entertaining, and as far as I know he hasn't alienated anyone or had a go at fans?

Tim may not be the answer I accept that, but **** having avb back.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Tactics have nothing to do with not being able to control a ball. Or make a simple pass. Or score easy goals. Or even put in effort.

Simple passes? He made TONS of them last season. score easy goals? he can take a place in line alongside every other player in our squad (strikers included) aside from Bale and Dempsey. Effort? He put in effort to my eyes but yes, I would concede that he certainly seemed a tad folorn at others. Ball control? again, I personally felt he did very well with what he was asked to do. I would say in his case tactics most certainly influenced his game; it basically took him out of being a striker and made him an attacking player who's main responsibility was to open up space for Bale. but it's all in how we see it…and I think AVB made a mistake with him. A big one. He should've tailored his management skills to accommodate (and use) a player such as Adebayor IMO. Sherwood did the right thing (for me) bringing him back, the chief problem is that Timbo is tactically out of it right now...

 

[lurker of old]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think people are wrong to say that AVB should have incorporated Ade, simply because NO MANAGER will tolerate a challenge to his authority. But it is all history now. The interesting one will be what happens if TS does really well in the remaining games....will we decide to retain him as HR mark 2?

And he is right in what he is saying about our transfer policy: in the short term, 3 experienced Premier League players would have been preferable to the risk of players unused to this league.