Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I believe AVB did the right thing with Ade - try and sell him and when he couldn't, keep him away from the team where he can't do any damage.
There's not much AVB can do about Ade's silly wages that nobody else will meet.

Whereas I believe he did completely the wrong thing.... As soon as he was unable to sell him he should've tried to find a way to get the best out of him. The fact that he was prepared to consign a £100,000 a week player to the scrap heap (despite him being the best suited player for his system) says a lot about the mentality of the manager. It shows that he is unable to forgive, forget and move on from previous issues to try to achieve the best outcome for the club, instead putting his own personal emotions first.

Instead of moving Adebayor to a place where he couldn't do any damage, AVB instead moved him to a place where he did huge damage (to AVB's career!) I still maintain that had AVB treated Adebayor like an experienced, top player instead of a naughty school boy then Spurs would probably be in the top four and AVB would probably still be in a job, while being lauded as a fanstatic manager. If a player needs to be told that they are brilliant and pivotal to the team in order to perform - then FFS tell them that very same thing insted of letting your own ego get in the way.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Can any Modf point us to the old Adebayor thread of 2012-13; I bet there may be one or two people who are currently sucking off TS/****ing on AVB for playing/not playing Ade who were screaming blue murder that AVB even had him on the pitch last season when he was "lazy", "couldn't hit a barn door", "should f-off out of my club" - especially after the Basle penalty shoot-out.

That poster Onlyme would no doubt have a field day looking back and showcasing the hypocrites:lol:

They'll probably be just as many "what the **** is AVB doing" posts by people supporting him now.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

My main criticism of Adebayor is that he seems to work for mostly himself, not the team. An example of this was the goal he scored on the line against Sunderland. Harry Kane did all the ground work, and Ade swooped in for a tap in. He then took this chance to do his now trademark celebration with Sherwood for a photo opportunity instead of giving Kane the credit that he deserved. Perhaps he is on a massive goal bonus, which would give reason for him doing it?

I thought this at first as well when watching the game at WHL on Monday night.... but then I saw the replay when I got home... The ball was travelling slowly with a defender closing in. Theoretically I guess Adebayor could've perhaps shielded the ball over the line, but imagine if somehow the defender had managed to get his foot in and clear it?.... We would've all been fuming. If that was me up front in Adebayor's place then I would've been smashing the ball home and claiming the goal irrespective of whether the ball was heading in comfortably or not and I would always want my centre forward to be doing the same thing.

Straight after he scored and prior to his trademark salute he went over to Kane to thank/celebrate.

Additionally the way that Adebayor drops deep, pulls wide, etc has always shown to me the very opposite of a player who plays only for himself. I'm not sure where that particular view comes from to be honest?

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I thought this at first as well when watching the game at WHL on Monday night.... but then I saw the replay when I got home... The ball was travelling slowly with a defender closing in. Theoretically I guess Adebayor could've perhaps shielded the ball over the line, but imagine if somehow the defender had managed to get his foot in and clear it?.... We would've all been fuming. If that was me up front in Adebayor's place then I would've been smashing the ball home and claiming the goal irrespective of whether the ball was heading in comfortably or not and I would always want my centre forward to be doing the same thing.

Straight after he scored and prior to his trademark salute he went over to Kane to thank/celebrate.

Additionally the way that Adebayor drops deep, pulls wide, etc has always shown to me the very opposite of a player who plays only for himself. I'm not sure where that particular view comes from to be honest?

From the anti-Ade phalanx, of course there is no factual basis for that opinion.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Whereas I believe he did completely the wrong thing.... As soon as he was unable to sell him he should've tried to find a way to get the best out of him. The fact that he was prepared to consign a £100,000 a week player to the scrap heap (despite him being the best suited player for his system) says a lot about the mentality of the manager. It shows that he is unable to forgive, forget and move on from previous issues to try to achieve the best outcome for the club, instead putting his own personal emotions first.

Instead of moving Adebayor to a place where he couldn't do any damage, AVB instead moved him to a place where he did huge damage (to AVB's career!) I still maintain that had AVB treated Adebayor like an experienced, top player instead of a naughty school boy then Spurs would probably be in the top four and AVB would probably still be in a job, while being lauded as a fanstatic manager. If a player needs to be told that they are brilliant and pivotal to the team in order to perform - then FFS tell them that very same thing insted of letting your own ego get in the way.

But that's like saying when United sold Beckham, he was a good player so Fergie should have found a way to keep him or whatever. But the reason he was being sold was because he was becomming bigger than the team as an individual, where as Fergie wanted a team of players that put the team ethic above all. Fergie had the power, he had a consistent line of what he wanted and it meant casting a good player away to keep building how he wanted to build.

Ade is a talent, no doubt. But as an individual he may threaten the overall vision of what is trying to be built. That vision if carried through would see us be successful, and that vision would be the reason for it. In a team where the manager wants to foster a freedom of expression kind of culture, Ade probably thrives more often than not.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The thing is though if you're a football manager trying to build something, you need to do it your way. There is no universal right or wrong way in terms of tactics, player selection, whatever. But what I think is right is that you have some consistency in terms of what you are trying to build. Everything has to be aligned. If you want to build a defensive team of 6"5 monsters and you get given some tika-taka wannabees, it won't work. Similarly if you're trying to build a team that places the team ethic beyond individual concerns, then getting some players that need to not feel restricted probably won't work.

Ade is a good player under a Sherwood or a Harry. But that doesn't mean AVB is wrong to not use him because his objectives are entirely different. When too many competing forces are trying to pull clubs one way and the other that's when problems start. Man United have it right, the manager is backed and he is given time to build. It's clear, consistent.

What about if the team you are managing is struggling to score goals while your new centre forward is clearly less suited to the role in the team that you want your centre forward to play?.... While the other players in your team/squad are all confused as to why your best centre forward isn't being given a chance? In this case I would ask what the objectives of the manager are? Are they to achieve the best possible performances and results for the club or to show, no matter what, that "I am always right (even when I'm wrong)"?

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But that's like saying when United sold Beckham, he was a good player so Fergie should have found a way to keep him or whatever. But the reason he was being sold was because he was becomming bigger than the team as an individual, where as Fergie wanted a team of players that put the team ethic above all. Fergie had the power, he had a consistent line of what he wanted and it meant casting a good player away to keep building how he wanted to build.

It's not the same at all. I have no issue at all with AVB wanting to sell Adebayor. The issue I have is with his treatment of him when a sale wasn't possible. Do you think if having tried to sell Beckham, and no other club wanting to pay the money for him and/or the player refusing to take a transfer that Ferguson would've simply consigned the player to the scrap heap? Or do you think he would've tried to find a way to reintegrate him into the team for the best of the club and their results?

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

People on that end of the spectrum tend to succeed by appointing a more cuddly/people person #2. That intermediary was always supposed to be Freund.

The problem is that he fell out with Freund after he questioned the tactics in the Arsenal game and then ostracised him.

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Is this the TS thread or the AVB thread?

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

What have you read that brings you to that conclusion? Do you not feel that the fact that his goals per game record under AVB is poor in comparison to every single manager he has ever played under suggests that it just might be down to something that AVB was doing differently than everyone else?

There were quite a few articles at the time asking questions along the lines of which Ade had we bought? We also had a couple of pet City posters on here at the time and most Arsenal fans were saying the same.

I think Ade's goal record was a combination of a number of things. We're a club less in the spotlight than he's used to - less feeling of playing for a payday publicly. We're a worse team than he's used to playing for but at the same level of competition so our strikers will naturally score fewer goals. We're paying him a lot less than any other club has (to my knowledge).

There's certainly a factor that Ade needs his **** kissed and his pockets filled before he bothers to turn up - that's a weakness of the player not the manager.

 

[Notmegov]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Is this the TS thread or the AVB thread?

nope its the lets all get our knickers in a twist around around the circle thread.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So AVB did the right thing in tring to sell by far and away our best striker?

Yep. And in trying to sell by far and away our best left back.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Adebayor scored goals under Redknapp and Sherwood but couldnt do the same under AVB....... I have no problems with Ade whilst he has been at Spurs. Its not his fault one manager couldnt set the team up that allowed the strikers to flourish

Exactly.
I cannot believe we are having the 'Ade debate' again…I liked AVB, I'm not a huge fan of Sherwood, but I give him credit for realizing the obvious, which is when you have a striker who can score goals, find a way to bring them back in. He didn't have to try to hard, he simply had to play the bloke! Equally, given Bale's ridiculous form last season, I saw why AVB had him paying 'a role' too…I hope we keep Adebayor personally.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It depends on how he brought it up in front of the other players. You seem to have come to the conclusion that he brought it up in front of everyone in a manner that makes AVB look a fool. Have you considered the possibility that he brought it up in a perfectly acceptable way whilst everyone was there and AVB still threw his toys out of the pram? In this case, AVB would be in the wrong.

And also, based on your logic AVB should have taken him off to practice controlling a ball/booked him a psychologist to help him stop being a dingdong. Remember everything is attributed to the manager.

I think that no matter what words you use, suggesting that you know better than your boss in front of all your coworkers and after having tried it privately, you're wrong.

What is there to be gained from doing it in front of the rest of the team when you've already made your point clear and been disagreed with? The only outcome is that it undermines the manager, which is wrong whether your tactical point is right or not.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yep. And in trying to sell by far and away our best left back.

As Soldado and Rose's performances have proved all season long! :lol:

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

From what I've read of his time at other clubs, it's not about how he's managed, it's about whether he can be bothered. This changes with the wind, it seems.

AVB's biggest mistake was not realising that in Ade's eye, this is a contract season.

Sorry, I think in that case, the 'wind' in North London blows fairly consistently then. He was great in '12, average last season (given his role - something I banged on about all last season to much ridicule only to now see has become a plausible theory - because, of course, it is!) and he's been great this season when in the side. Let's face it, he has not buggered us about anything like as much as people would love to think...

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Whereas I believe he did completely the wrong thing.... As soon as he was unable to sell him he should've tried to find a way to get the best out of him. The fact that he was prepared to consign a £100,000 a week player to the scrap heap (despite him being the best suited player for his system) says a lot about the mentality of the manager. It shows that he is unable to forgive, forget and move on from previous issues to try to achieve the best outcome for the club, instead putting his own personal emotions first.

Instead of moving Adebayor to a place where he couldn't do any damage, AVB instead moved him to a place where he did huge damage (to AVB's career!) I still maintain that had AVB treated Adebayor like an experienced, top player instead of a naughty school boy then Spurs would probably be in the top four and AVB would probably still be in a job, while being lauded as a fanstatic manager. If a player needs to be told that they are brilliant and pivotal to the team in order to perform - then FFS tell them that very same thing insted of letting your own ego get in the way.

I think there's far too much risk to the general team spirit and behaviour to bend over for a player like that.

Just like Mankini lost the respect of his players after he took Tevez back, so would AVB.

If we're ever to become better than the sum of our parts (and I hope we do, because I don't like finishing 6th) then we need our players to put the team before themselves. I don't believe Ade fits into that regime.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

As Soldado and Rose's performances have proved all season long! :lol:

When trying to build for the long term, there's a lot more to it than that, as you well know.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sorry, I think in that case, the 'wind' in North London blows fairly consistently then. He was great in '12, average last season (given his role - something I banged on about all last season to much ridicule only to now see has become a plausible theory - because, of course, it is!) and he's been great this season when in the side. Let's face it, he has not buggered us about anything like as much as people would love to think...

Tactics have nothing to do with not being able to control a ball. Or make a simple pass. Or score easy goals. Or even put in effort.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

When trying to build for the long term, there's a lot more to it than that, as you well know.

Well in that case let's ensure that we first get players that are:

a) good enough.
and
b) suit the system that we are trying to play.

Until that point let's play the players that tick both of those boxes and pick up the best possible results to get us to the next transfer window in order to address that.