Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If Ade is disrupting and eroding AVB's authority then it absolutely isn't the smart thing to do to make use of him. If they backed him they would have backed his decision to keep him away from the first team.

If I wanted I could find plenty of quotes from players saying how AVB was great with them. I could also find plenty of quotes about all managers from players saying they were good or bad to them. It means nothing. The strange thing is though the examples against AVB are used in a 'this shows he absolutely cannot manage people' as if he's an overly statistical mildly autistic social depart, and in actual fact he is perfectly capable. But in management you have decisions to make and that means some people will be annoyed with them.

I have only seen people speculating that Ade undermined AVB nothing concrete. I've seen several reports in the press of AVB making, what I would consider to be, bad man management decisions towards Ade. Having an argument with him for wearing a Beanie and making him stand on a chair and apologise to the squad are the kind of actions that are going to divide a group of players. I am not pretending that it is all one sided, I am sure that managing Ade is a challenge but that is what he was paid millions for.

Again, in your second paragraph, I think that you avoid the difficult truth and prefer the comfort of your construct. AVB has many strengths but in his short managerial career he has a history of falling out with players and people behind the scenes.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I have only seen people speculating that Ade undermined AVB nothing concrete.

I'm pretty sure Ade himself said that he tried telling the manager he was wrong privately and the manager didn't change things so he said it in front of the team.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm pretty sure Ade himself said that he tried telling the manager he was wrong privately and the manager didn't change things so he said it in front of the team.

That could be used as evidence against either of them. If AVB can only manage compliant footballers, that says something about his people skills.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That could be used as evidence against either of them. If AVB can only manage compliant footballers, that says something about his people skills.

Unfortunately, clubs are limited to fining a player 2 weeks wages, so the correct and deserved punishment for Ade wasn't available.

Other than dropping him to the reserves until he learns some humility and respect, what other options are available? IMO there has to be some kind of clear punishment shown to the rest of the team or there would be no team at all.

I still think this is a failure from Levy in letting such a disease fester at our club - I was in favour of us signing Ade when City were offering him about for pennies, now I know why they were.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Unfortunately, clubs are limited to fining a player 2 weeks wages, so the correct and deserved punishment for Ade wasn't available.

Other than dropping him to the reserves until he learns some humility and respect, what other options are available? IMO there has to be some kind of clear punishment shown to the rest of the team or there would be no team at all.

I still think this is a failure from Levy in letting such a disease fester at our club - I was in favour of us signing Ade when City were offering him about for pennies, now I know why they were.

I think that is strange to attribute all of the blame on one side when we know so little details about it. It is perfectly possible that bad man management exasperated the problem.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think people are wrong to say that AVB should have incorporated Ade, simply because NO MANAGER will tolerate a challenge to his authority. But it is all history now. The interesting one will be what happens if TS does really well in the remaining games....will we decide to retain him as HR mark 2?

And he is right in what he is saying about our transfer policy: in the short term, 3 experienced Premier League players would have been preferable to the risk of players unused to this league.

Yeah, I don't really understand what he was supposed to have done. If he got challenged in front of everyone and AVB continues to play him as if there is no problem, his authority is eroded and nothing would get built. Sherwood can bring Ade back simply because he wasn't AVB. It's not because Sherwood is capable of doing some secret man management trickery that AVB would never be able to understand.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think that is strange to attribute all of the blame on one side when we know pso little details about it. It is perfectly possible that bad man management exasperated the problem.

I don't know if Ade was right in his complaint or not.

What I do know is that after taking it to the manager privately and getting no satisfaction, bringing it up in front of the team is absolutely wrong. It can only be to undermine the manager or try and force his hand by undermining him.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That could be used as evidence against either of them. If AVB can only manage compliant footballers, that says something about his people skills.

AVB was still in the early stages of establishing his authority at the club. The stage is important because it means dissenting voices will still be there. If we had backed him, we would have gotten to the point where no player would challenge the manager in public (having already been given his answer in private) because the authority would be clear.

No manager is going to stand for being challenged in public. I'd say it's good leadership for the greater good of the team and the project that was being built.

 

[mudshark]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't know if Ade was right in his complaint or not.

What I do know is that after taking it to the manager privately and getting no satisfaction, bringing it up in front of the team is absolutely wrong. It can only be to undermine the manager or try and force his hand by undermining him.

I consider myself quite lucky in that I've generally worked in fairly flat hierarchies in science and engineering where people have tended to be a bit less precious about status, are usually big enough to accept criticism from the floor but argue their case if they think it's strong enough. That may not exactly be a workable model when you're running a football team, but I have met its polar opposite as well and I would say a person is often less likely to harm their position in the long run by showing openness to the input of others than by adopting an entrenched position that everyone else thinks is wrong-headed. I wonder whether, if AVB had his time here over again, he'd have tried to handle Ade a bit differently.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

There's certainly a factor that Ade needs his **** kissed and his pockets filled before he bothers to turn up - that's a weakness of the player not the manager.

It's always something to do with him, he's the manager - he's where the blame lands. That's the nature of the job.

Make your mind up. Is it always sonething to do with the manager or is it not? Or is it only something to do with the manager when it suits the argument you're trying to put forward?

I think that no matter what words you use, suggesting you know better than your boss in front of all your coworkers and after having tried it privately, you're wrong.

What is there to be gained from doing it in front of the rest of the team when you've already made your point clear and been disagreed with? The only outcome is that it undermines the manager, which is wrong whether your tactical point is right or not.

Again you're assuming that he suggested he knows better than AVB. You don't know that and neither do I. Based on the only actual concrete evidence we currently have, (Ade scoring for fun since being put back in the team), the only rational conclusion is that AVB should have been playing him.

Would you rather we were sitting in 4th right now or where we are currently?

 

[Superhudd]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Bye Bye Timmeh, you twunt

 

[Jordinho]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Dear Timmy

Please **** off

Cheers

29 days and counting.

 

[kanoute16]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Too many poor starts to be just down to players! Sherwood just isn't good enough, surely those on here who think he deserves a chance must see this now.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Make your mind up. Is it always sonething to do with the manager or is it not? Or is it only something to do with the manager when it suits the argument you're trying to put forward?

The manager did his bit. He dropped Ade and asked the chairman to sell him. Levy failed.

Again you're assuming that he suggested he knows better than AVB. You don't know that and neither do I. Based on the only actual concrete evidence we currently have, (Ade scoring for fun since being put back in the team), the only rational conclusion is that AVB should have been playing him.

Would you rather we were sitting in 4th right now or where we are currently?

That's far from the only evidence - Ade in his own words has told us what happened.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I consider myself quite lucky in that I've generally worked in fairly flat hierarchies in science and engineering where people have tended to be a bit less precious about status, are usually big enough to accept criticism from the floor but argue their case if they think it's strong enough. That may not exactly be a workable model when you're running a football team, but I have met its polar opposite as well and I would say a person is often less likely to harm their position in the long run by showing openness to the input of others than by adopting an entrenched position that everyone else thinks is wrong-headed. I wonder whether, if AVB had his time here over again, he'd have tried to handle Ade a bit differently.

I wrote quite the tldr in reply to this and my phone ran out of battery before I posted it, so please excuse me for rambling a little in the rewrite.
My workplace is similar to yours - the management structure is pretty flat and everyone has an input.

Our workplaces differ from a football team though.

You say you work in science and engineering so I assume the people offering advice were offering it from a technical standpoint about something they can claim to be expert about? I guess they weren't telling their managers how to manage a team?

We also limit our flatness so as not to include those who work on our shop floors. The staff turnover there is high (like with players) and makes the " try it your way/learn the hard way" technique of management too expensive and repetetive.

They're also (like players) the least educated and least able to properly partake in a discussion in a manner that benefits everone.

That's not to say that people who work at that level for us can never disagree. It just means that they need to have a word in the ear of a manager about it and if the response is negative, continue as told or find the door.

 

[mudshark]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

^^I wouldn't think anything would really be off-limits in the group I've been with the past 14 years and most of us manage ourselves, practically speaking, but no, I think we're agreed it might not be the way to run a football club. I do note the point in your final sentence, although of course, in this case, it's Ade who's still here (for the time being).

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I have given Sherwood the benefit of the doubt but I think the biggest mark against him is he does not appear to be in control and he does not inspire calmness or trust in the players. He needs to go out and do stuff in the lower leagues because without that I do not think he will ever get the respect he want as he seems to manager through a fear type of leadership.

Do not like his style or our style of play under him, it was right he was given a fair chance but from watching him and us I do not think he will make a top level coach.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yeah, he's done. I maintained that the only hope he had was bettering last season's points tally (getting 74 points), but this draw means that's mathematically impossible, with the best we can do being 72, same as last time. We will not get into the CL. Everton or **** will. And combine that with a now almost certain win for Arsenal in the FA Cup final, and you've got a lot of negativity around the club come the end of the season.

It is impossible for him to survive now. Don't know if it ever was possible, to be honest, but it's definitely impossible now. So give him the last few games, boot him out, and start again.

Kaboul, Chiriches, and quite a few others are liable to go along with him, which is probably for the best given the horrific displays they've been putting in over the last few months. Bit unfortunate for Chiriches (he ws more than decent at the start of the season), but we need to perform a major bloodletting to rid ourselves of the taint of this season.

Sigh.

 

[Cochise]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Today
----------

Pro's:
Half time team talk must've been great to listen in on, because some players were ****e. Second half performance was a step up
At half time he made some tweeks and we dominated the second half. Eriksen came in centrally and Chadli looked to be playing as the deepest player in the setup. Oh and Vlad was taken off
We lost our way after the subs, most notably the Siggy one as Eriksen got shifted wide again and we noticably lost our tempo.

Cons:
The team were a shambles in the first half and the midfield was out of shape. Check a few replays and you can see massive spaces opening up ahead of our defence.
Our defending was poor again.
A very bad opening 15 minutes. We keep making these individual mistakes so I'm guessing the players aren't going out motivated.


So he gets some stick for the first half but some credit for the changes made at half time. I still don't think he should be our coach next year but I'm not gonna be the same as others on here and write him off straight away. Our defence needs sorting out big time.

 

[the dza]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think what Sherwood has mainly shown is that he isn't ready for this job. But if it means Van Gaal takes over in the summer, then I can live with that.