Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

And? You've just picked out random games. Saying our average has zero impact on single statistical events.

What is your evidence against this? And averages aren't particularly compelling evidence when considering one off games.

So if averages are not particularly compelling evidence for considering one off games, we COULD beat Liverscum 6-0 on Sunday. Possible yes, but based on recent evidence of their and our respective "averages" I would venture to suggest, not very likely. I think most bookmakers would agree with me!

 

[chancer]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That's neither the point I was making nor what I said. I'll try again as simply as I can put it.

Players playing above par - credit to YTS
Players playing at par - as expected, any manager should be able to do that
Players playing below par - YTS takes the ultimate blame

Seeing as we have the 5th or 6th most expensive squad in the PL, par performances should often yield a win.

Would be interesting to get a rundown on who's playing above/below/at par under Sherwood. Cut and paste section below. I've started off with a few no-brainers, assuming that by above/below/par we mean "performing above/below/par for their time at Spurs under other managers".

......................


First Team Squad

Kyle Walker
Danny Rose
Younès Kaboul
Jan Vertonghen
Aaron Lennon
Paulinho
Roberto Soldado
Kyle Naughton
Andros Townsend
Mousa Dembélé
Michael Dawson
Nacer Chadli
Gylfi Sigurðsson
Sandro
Zeki Fryers
Harry Kane
Christian Eriksen



Under Par
Étienne Capoue


Par
Hugo Lloris


Over Par
Emmanuel Adebayor
Nabil Bentaleb



N/A (injured, not in contention etc.)
Vlad Chiricheș
Erik Lamela
Jordan Archer
Heurelho Gomes
Brad Friedel

 

[Hashegotthesackyet?]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

No. It means you can criticise him for those players being below par whilst still giving him credit for the ones that were above par.

Not sure why you're even bothering... there used to be a forum over there!

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

You absolutely can account for it. I'd expect any half arsed manager to be looking at videos of Southampton and seeing that they like to target weak full backs with balls into the channels just like Liverpool.

What "balls into channels", Naughton got caught on the first goal by a 70 yard punt downfield from the goalkeeper and the second goal he was where the CBs should have been defending. There were no "balls into the channel" for either goal.

If YTS rakes him to one side in training and works on it properly, that doesn't happen.

You mean like all the shooting practice they no doubt have in training sessions and Chadli still can't hit the net against Arsenal from 6 yards out. Was that also TS's fault because he didn't train Chadli right or just a crap shot?

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Would be interesting to get a rundown on who's playing above/below/at par under Sherwood. Cut and paste section below. I've started off with a few no-brainers, assuming that by above/below/par we mean "performing above/below/par for their time at Spurs under other managers".

......................


First Team Squad

Kyle Walker - INJURED
Danny Rose - BELOW PAR
Younès Kaboul - NOT FIT BUT PLAYING THUS BELOW PAR
Jan Vertonghen - SEE KABOUL
Aaron Lennon
Paulinho - BELOW BELOW PAR
Roberto Soldado
Kyle Naughton - BELOW PAR BUT ONLY PLAYING DUE TO INJURIES
Andros Townsend - PAR (BUT ONLY BECAUSE HE'S OVERHYPED IN THE FIRST PLACE)
Mousa Dembélé - BELOW PAR
Michael Dawson - INJURED
Nacer Chadli
Gylfi Sigurðsson
Sandro - BELOW PAR
Zeki Fryers - ABOVE PAR vs Benfice, PAR Other games
Harry Kane
Christian Eriksen

Under Par
Étienne Capoue


Par
Hugo Lloris


Over Par
Emmanuel Adebayor
Nabil Bentaleb

N/A (injured, not in contention etc.)
Vlad Chiricheș
Erik Lamela
Jordan Archer
Heurelho Gomes
Brad Friedel

I'd say we have a lot of players playing below par, partly due to playing out of position, partly due to being rushed abck too soon after injury and partly because everyone rates them higher than I do

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Hey guys and gals, there are some very interesting statistics found by SteveAWOL in the "Fourth- Who are we going to beat to it?" Thread, culminating in post No. 628, which confirms:

"The defensive errors by Spurs players so far this season have been split evenly between the AVB and Sherwood reigns. However, only 6 out of 11 under AVB led to goals, whilst 9 out of 11 under Sherwood have cost us a goal."

It is a very interesting read and maybe someone more technically competent on this site than me can cut and paste it here as it deserves a wider audience.

 

[NWND]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Under Par
Étienne Capoue
Sandro
Mousa Dembélé
Andros Townsend
Aaron Lennon
Jan Vertonghen
Danny Rose
Paulinho
Roberto Soldado
Nacer Chadli

Par
Hugo Lloris
Younès Kaboul
Michael Dawson
Kyle Walker
Kyle Naughton

Over Par
Emmanuel Adebayor
Nabil Bentaleb
Christian Eriksen

N/A (injured, not in contention etc.)
Vlad Chiricheș
Erik Lamela
Jordan Archer
Heurelho Gomes
Brad Friedel
Gylfi Sigurðsson
Zeki Fryers
Harry Kane

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Hey guys and gals, there are some very interesting statistics found by SteveAWOL in the "Fourth- Who are we going to beat to it?" Thread, culminating in post No. 628, which confirms:

"The defensive errors by Spurs players so far this season have been split evenly between the AVB and Sherwood reigns. However, only 6 out of 11 under AVB led to goals, whilst 9 out of 11 under Sherwood have cost us a goal."

It is a very interesting read and maybe someone more technically competent on this site than me can cut and paste it here as it deserves a wider audience.

I'm sure they've all seen it but he3e goes for you.

Using the date filters on http://www.squawka.com/football-player-rankings, the defensive errors by Spurs players so far this season have been split evenly between AVB and Sherwood' reigns. However only 6 of the 11 under Andre led to goals whilst 9 of 11 under Sherwood have cost us a goal.



Last season there were 29 defensive errors by Spurs players (8th worse in the league) but only 8 of those led to goals (tied for 11th worse in the league).

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

What "balls into channels", Naughton got caught on the first goal by a 70 yard punt downfield from the goalkeeper and the second goal he was where the CBs should have been defending. There were no "balls into the channel" for either goal.

But long balls over his head are an aspect of the game he struggles with. And they're a method SCBC like to employ - it would have made sense to have been working on them which would have helped here.

More importantly, we should (especially after so many recent errors) have been working on concentration and decision making. Again, if you focus on working up your team and sending them out to go haring all over the pitch, you are massively increasing the likelihood of errors creeping in.

You mean like all the shooting practice they no doubt have in training sessions and Chadli still can't hit the net against Arsenal from 6 yards out. Was that also TS's fault because he didn't train Chadli right or just a crap shot?

We should have been working on composure under pressure for the players likely to have that kind of chance. I'd be very surprised if our striking coach isn't doing that.

The trouble with shooting practice is that you can never control all the variables - the placement of the keeper/defenders, the angle of the pass, the speed of approach, etc. Working with defenders on concentrating and "If in doubt, get it clear" is far easier to do.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Would be interesting to get a rundown on who's playing above/below/at par under Sherwood. Cut and paste section below. I've started off with a few no-brainers, assuming that by above/below/par we mean "performing above/below/par for their time at Spurs under other managers".

Mine has the caveat that for many "at Spurs under other managers" is irrelevant - many of them only turned up in the summer and would take at least 6 months to acclimatise (by most people's reckoning).

......................


First Team Squad

Under Par
Étienne Capoue
Younès Kaboul (there's a case here to put him in the injured group)
Sandro
Michael Dawson
Jan Vertonghen
Kyle Walker
Aaron Lennon
Paulinho
Roberto Soldado (was also under par for AVB)
Kyle Naughton
Mousa Dembélé
Gylfi Sigurðsson


Par
Hugo Lloris
Nacer Chadli (beginning to improve)
Danny Rose (playing badly but I just don't think he's much good)
Andros Townsend (see Danny Rose)
Christian Eriksen
Zeki Fryers
Harry Kane

Over Par
Emmanuel Adebayor
Nabil Bentaleb




N/A (injured, not in contention etc.)
Vlad Chiricheș
Erik Lamela
Jordan Archer
Heurelho Gomes
Brad Friedel

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The thing is you are not allowing for him coming in mid season. The limited amount of games and training time has not been factored into your analysis.

When compared to his predecessor he has had the advantage of a team that's more settled.

There was a system in place that was providing us with a decent points return. It still needed work, but it's not like he walked into a destroyed dressing room of relegation fodder. He picked up a team that was doing a pretty good job of winning points/matches.

I think you're pretty honest that you never liked TS and you never will like him.

What people find frustrating is that your arguments have a strong premise of scientific logic - and indeed a lot of what you evidence is logical and fascinating - but your judgment of TS is underpinned by an emotional dislike of the man. Logic has little to do with it. It makes for an interesting even if maddening debate.

Personally, I think TS has come into a tough situation, when longer term experienced Mangers were not available, and he's done extremely well in the circumstances. We haven't seen the team play particularly well under TS however. There are few signs that he has a plan or a team shape, or that the team will start to pass better, or are developing a strong defensive unit. But AVB didn't do any better. And there are two things you can credit TS with. We score more goals. And we show more fight. Sunday's turn around was not pretty, but it had TS written all over it. Players chasing down lost causes, and determined to get a result. Some credit is due.

That's a fair assessment of how I feel about him. When I criticise him I try to do so on the basis of evidence (or at least a consensus of opinion here) and I try to be fair with that.

I'm probably slow to praise him due to my dislike though - that's where the intangibles are I guess. Where those who like him see a plan working, I see a drowning man thrashing about and finding some debris.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm sure they've all seen it but he3e goes for you.

Many thanks.

Funny how those previously somehow blaming individual errors on TS have not made any comments on this evidence.

Scara, GB, Glorygloryeze, Jordy, anyone?

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But long balls over his head are an aspect of the game he struggles with. And they're a method SCBC like to employ - it would have made sense to have been working on them which would have helped here.

More importantly, we should (especially after so many recent errors) have been working on concentration and decision making. Again, if you focus on working up your team and sending them out to go haring all over the pitch, you are massively increasing the likelihood of errors creeping in.

Amazing absolutely fvcking amazing.

You have bullsh!t for every statement.

You, and I quote,

You absolutely can account for it. I'd expect any half arsed manager to be looking at videos of Southampton and seeing that they like to target weak full backs with balls into the channels just like Liverpool.

He should then know who would be a weak point in that scenario or test them heavily in training to find out.

I defend it because it wasn't "balls into the channel" and you turn it into another argument about something not mentioned regarding long balls.

Now tell me do Southampton like to play hoof ball to catch out fullbacks not being able to judge the flight of the ball or is it balls in to the channel?

You have more twists and turns than an epileptic rattlesnake.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

We should have been working on composure under pressure for the players likely to have that kind of chance. I'd be very surprised if our striking coach isn't doing that.

The trouble with shooting practice is that you can never control all the variables - the placement of the keeper/defenders, the angle of the pass, the speed of approach, etc. Working with defenders on concentrating and "If in doubt, get it clear" is far easier to do.

With all the training you want them to do I'd be surprised if we had time to play any matches at all.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

When compared to his predecessor he has had the advantage of a team that's more settled.

There was a system in place that was providing us with a decent points return. It still needed work, but it's not like he walked into a destroyed dressing room of relegation fodder. He picked up a team that was doing a pretty good job of winning points/matches.

And continued on the same trajectory of winning points/matches.

That's a fair assessment of how I feel about him. When I criticise him I try to do so on the basis of evidence (or at least a consensus of opinion here) and I try to be fair with that.

I'm probably slow to praise him due to my dislike though - that's where the intangibles are I guess. Where those who like him see a plan working, I see a drowning man thrashing about and finding some debris.

Now we're getting somewhere. At least you've admitted it (which I think was many people's issue). Although I'd replace 'slow to give him praise' with 'I will never give him praise' :lol:.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Amazing absolutely fvcking amazing.

You have bullsh!t for every statement.

You, and I quote, I defend it because it wasn't "balls into the channel" and you turn it into another argument about something not mentioned regarding long balls.

Now tell me do Southampton like to play hoof ball to catch out fullbacks not being able to judge the flight of the ball or is it balls in to the channel?

You have more twists and turns than an epileptic rattlesnake.

Had we been practising defending balls into the channel, Naughton would have had some (clearly needed) practice at not letting the ball go over his head. As I said in my last post, the most important thing is the work done on concentration and decision making - the number of errors we've made recently suggest that it's not being done.

 

[Jordinho]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Many thanks.

Funny how those previously somehow blaming individual errors on TS have not made any comments on this evidence.

Scara, GB, Glorygloryeze, Jordy, anyone?

Evidence of what exactly? That under Sherwood our defence is so poorly organized that we concede from almost every individual mistake?

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Amazing absolutely fvcking amazing.

You have bullsh!t for every statement.

You, and I quote, I defend it because it wasn't "balls into the channel" and you turn it into another argument about something not mentioned regarding long balls.

Now tell me do Southampton like to play hoof ball to catch out fullbacks not being able to judge the flight of the ball or is it balls in to the channel?

You have more twists and turns than an epileptic rattlesnake.

:ross:

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

And continued on the same trajectory of winning points/matches.

......completely negating the upward trend that a stable system and properly integrated new players would likely have provided.

Now we're getting somewhere. At least you've admitted it (which I think was many people's issue). Although I'd replace 'slow to give him praise' with 'I will never give him praise' :lol:.

It would take a lot - he'd have to do something really impressive like AVB's tailoring of training to cut down on late errors.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Had we been practising defending balls into the channel, Naughton would have had some (clearly needed) practice at not letting the ball go over his head. As I said in my last post, the most important thing is the work done on concentration and decision making - the number of errors we've made recently suggest that it's not being done.

Come on now, in the grand scheme of things, do you really expect a professional football team to spend time on defending balls into the channel, you don't believe that this is one of the basic fundamentals of play in the full-back position that every single player playing full back at any level of professional football should already have???