Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Come on now, in the grand scheme of things, do you really expect a professional football team to spend time on defending balls into the channel, you don't believe that this is one of the basic fundamentals of play in the full-back position that every single player playing full back at any level of professional football should already have???

It's been something teams have targeted us with (quite successfully) this season. It's something both Rose and Naughton struggle with. I'd expect some tailored training for each of them every week in this at least until the summer.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Had we been practising defending balls into the channel, Naughton would have had some (clearly needed) practice at not letting the ball go over his head. As I said in my last post, the most important thing is the work done on concentration and decision making - the number of errors we've made recently suggest that it's not being done.

Balls into the channel and balls bouncing over his head are two completely different things. As for concentration and decision making you cannot coach that in to someone they either are good at it or not.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

......completely negating the upward trend that a stable system and properly integrated new players would likely have provided.

You don't know that.

It would take a lot - he'd have to do something really impressive like AVB's tailoring of training to cut down on late errors.

The stats that have just been posted in this very same thread suggest that there were just as many defensive errors under AVB.

If you're refering to when AVB tailored training to make us better at closing games out/concentrating more, it took a few games of us ballsing things up for him to actually do that, then it took a while for the training to actually pay off. This isn't football manager, you don't just press a button and the players do exactly as you ask immediately. Things take time too implement.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Evidence of what exactly? That under Sherwood our defence is so poorly organized that we concede from almost every individual mistake?

Ha ha. So you don't accept that the statistics show we made EXACTLY the same number of defensive errors under both coaches. You simply choose to believe that the fact that more resulted in goals against under Sherwood is down to poorly organized defenses to support your bias rather than sheer bad luck? If so, we will surely see Scaras fabled regression to mean and with fewer goals conceded from the same number of defensive errors, then Sherwood will need to be acclaimed as a defensive maestro as he will have " fixed" the problem!!

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Balls into the channel and balls bouncing over his head are two completely different things.

Judging the flight of a ball is judging the flight of a ball (unless Ronaldo kicked it).

As for concentration and decision making you cannot coach that in to someone they either are good at it or not.

What utter nonsense - that's possibly one of the most ridiculous comments I've read on this forum (and it has some serious competition!). Of course it can be coached - there's evidence of that in our own team when AVB coached them out of making late mistakes.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It's been something teams have targeted us with (quite successfully) this season. It's something both Rose and Naughton struggle with. I'd expect some tailored training for each of them every week in this at least until the summer.

Neither of the goals against Southampton came from balls into the channel though.

I'm sure you are aware of this, but a ball into the channel is a ball played either between your full-back and center half, or over the top of your full back to the wing. The ball Naughton missed bounced in front of him therefore it wasn't a ball into the channel.

On no occasion did either Naughton or Rose get caught out by a ball into the channel against Southampton.

Give me a list of examples of goals we've conceded down to balls into the channel and we'll go through them one by one.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Judging the flight of a ball is judging the flight of a ball (unless Ronaldo kicked it).



What utter nonsense - that's possibly one of the most ridiculous comments I've read on this forum (and it has some serious competition!). Of course it can be coached - there's evidence of that in our own team when AVB coached them out of making late mistakes.

And when did this start happening and how long before AVB supposedly fixed it?

I recall important late goals against us at the beginning of last season ( ? Hull and WBA) and crucial late goals also towards the latter part of last season (Fulham (h) Liverpool and Everton(a)).

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

What utter nonsense - that's possibly one of the most ridiculous comments I've read on this forum (and it has some serious competition!). Of course it can be coached - there's evidence of that in our own team when AVB coached them out of making late mistakes.

Not ridiculous at all maybe you just don't understand. So I'll rephrase that you can try to coach it but players will still make the wrong decision or lose concentration at many points throughout the game, a misplaced pass, an unmarked player at corners, shooting rather than passing, they are all things that players are coached not to do (by concentrating more and/or making the right decision perhaps) but still do. You can train proactive decision making not reactive decision making and during the game most decisions are reactive.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Neither of the goals against Southampton came from balls into the channel though.I'm sure you are aware of this, but a ball into the channel is a ball played either between your full-back and center half, or over the top of your full back to the wing. The ball Naughton missed bounced in front of him therefore it wasn't a ball into the channel.

On no occasion did either Naughton or Rose get caught out by a ball into the channel against Southampton.

Give me a list of examples of goals we've conceded down to balls into the channel and we'll go through them one by one.

Been there done that argument, Scara just changed "balls into the channel" for "hoofed clearances by goalkeepers" to justify a losing argument.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

You don't know that.

I don't know that we wouldn't have won the league either. What I can do is make educated guesses at the likelihood of events.

Seeing as pretty much the entire footballing community (including plenty of posters here) seem to think that it takes 6 months for foreign players to adapt to the Premiership, it's not really a stretch to suggest that we would have improved once that happened.

It's also a fairly safe comment that stable systems tend to make players perform better. Look at the likes of Bolton under BFS and Stoke under Pulis - both teams benefitted from a (horrible) stable system which allowed them to outperform the quality of their players.

The stats that have just been posted in this very same thread suggest that there were just as many defensive errors under AVB.

If you're refering to when AVB tailored training to make us better at closing games out/concentrating more, it took a few games of us ballsing things up for him to actually do that, then it took a while for the training to actually pay off. This isn't football manager, you don't just press a button and the players do exactly as you ask immediately. Things take time too implement.

I've responded to the defensive errors in the original thread. I'd like to see what comprises a "defensive error" - does it include an error by a defender in the opposition's half? Does it include giving the ball away when attacking? My gut feeling is that if they're measured equally then the ones under Timmeh are simply worse mistakes, but it's a very small sample size.

I realise it takes time to implement training ideas, but either Timmeh has broken something that was working or he has introduced something (IMO his 1980s motivational methods) to cause these problems.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Neither of the goals against Southampton came from balls into the channel though.

I'm sure you are aware of this, but a ball into the channel is a ball played either between your full-back and center half, or over the top of your full back to the wing. The ball Naughton missed bounced in front of him therefore it wasn't a ball into the channel.

On no occasion did either Naughton or Rose get caught out by a ball into the channel against Southampton.

Give me a list of examples of goals we've conceded down to balls into the channel and we'll go through them one by one.

The point is that we should have noticed that it's a weak point of Naughton's and should have been working with him on it.

It's either a flight judgement issue or a concentration one but both would have been covered by the same training.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Not ridiculous at all maybe you just don't understand. So I'll rephrase that you can try to coach it but players will still make the wrong decision or lose concentration at many points throughout the game, a misplaced pass, an unmarked player at corners, shooting rather than passing, they are all things that players are coached not to do (by concentrating more and/or making the right decision perhaps) but still do. You can train proactive decision making not reactive decision making and during the game most decisions are reactive.

There will always be (quite rare) errors.

When they're as common as they currently are, something is rotten - most likely the manager's 1980s motivational talks.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The point is that we should have noticed that it's a weak point of Naughton's and should have been working with him on it.

It's either a flight judgement issue or a concentration one but both would have been covered by the same training.

So you put no blame whatsoever on the player for that and expect Tim Sherwood to spend time at training launching a ball up in the air for a professional footballer to head like you would with a 10 year old who's learning to head a ball for the first time?

Show me some evidence previous to the Southampton game that suggests it's a weak point of his.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

There will always be (quite rare) errors.

When they're as common as they currently are, something is rotten - most likely the manager's 1980s motivational talks.

Stats?

I'd say they're no more common than at any other time that i've been watching Spurs and that's some 36 years now.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't know that we wouldn't have won the league either. What I can do is make educated guesses at the likelihood of events.

Seeing as pretty much the entire footballing community (including plenty of posters here) seem to think that it takes 6 months for foreign players to adapt to the Premiership, it's not really a stretch to suggest that we would have improved once that happened.

It's also a fairly safe comment that stable systems tend to make players perform better. Look at the likes of Bolton under BFS and Stoke under Pulis - both teams benefitted from a (horrible) stable system which allowed them to outperform the quality of their players.



I've responded to the defensive errors in the original thread. I'd like to see what comprises a "defensive error" - does it include an error by a defender in the opposition's half? Does it include giving the ball away when attacking? My gut feeling is that if they're measured equally then the ones under Timmeh are simply worse mistakes, but it's a very small sample size.

I realise it takes time to implement training ideas, but either Timmeh has broken something that was working or he has introduced something (IMO his 1980s motivational methods) to cause these problems.

Again, when you post statistics (as in the "where we concede goals from" above) you take them as gospel, yet when other stats are quoted that you don't like ( or don't reinforce your bias) you try and undermine them.

Both sets of stats will have been compiled presumably with the concept of objectively, but will ultimately be down to someone's individual judgement. So, either both are equally valid or both are equally invalid.

Very intellectually astute of you, but unfortunately easy to see through you changing the goalposts once again.

 

[mudshark]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

On the subject of proportions of defensive errors that have led to goals, I'd also quite like to see some numbers on how often mistakes by the opposition defence have led to a goal for us. I don't know, but I strongly suspect those would be some rather unflattering statistics as well. Any info out there?

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

On the subject of proportions of defensive errors that have led to goals, I'd also quite like to see some numbers on how often mistakes by the opposition defence have led to a goal for us. I don't know, but I strongly suspect those would be some rather unflattering statistics as well. Any info out there?

From my memory one against Southampton at the weekend, but then again anything before Saturday is a blur.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So you put no blame whatsoever on the player for that and expect Tim Sherwood to spend time at training launching a ball up in the air for a professional footballer to head like you would with a 10 year old who's learning to head a ball for the first time?

Show me some evidence previous to the Southampton game that suggests it's a weak point of his.

If that's a problem for said player (it is) then, yes. Although I wouldn't expect Timmeh to do it, he'd be far too busy making himself look good/the players look bad in front of the press.

I seem to remember the Liverpool match being a problem for starters. Unfortunately I don't gather data for football matches, it takes far too much time up - I prefer to analyse what others have collected. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that's noticed our full back having problems positionally with aerial balls though.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Stats?

I'd say they're no more common than at any other time that i've been watching Spurs and that's some 36 years now.

Well it's 7 in our last 3 PL matches that have led to goals, ignoring any that didn't. I've been a Spurs fan for a while too and I'm pretty sure I don't remember that happening before.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Again, when you post statistics (as in the "where we concede goals from" above) you take them as gospel, yet when other stats are quoted that you don't like ( or don't reinforce your bias) you try and undermine them.

No, I state stats that have been defined. I question those that haven't.

I still think those stats are likely to paint Timmeh in a vey bad light but I'm not going to comment conclusively until someone defines them.

Both sets of stats will have been compiled presumably with the concept of objectively, but will ultimately be down to someone's individual judgement. So, either both are equally valid or both are equally invalid.

Very intellectually astute of you, but unfortunately easy to see through you changing the goalposts once again.

Not at all. Most stats are only down to judgement in their definition - once that definition has been laid down then it's almost always pretty easy to make numbers out of it.

As I said, in my own opinion the reason we are conceding more with the same number of errors is that the errors are simply worse under Timmeh. I'm actually holding off on criticising him until the definition of the stat shows that. If anything, I'm doing the opposite of what you're suggesting.