Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

No, but I blame him for making us worse. The only thing Sherwood has managed in 3 months is to allow opposition midfield runners the freedom of the pitch and increase the number of goals conceded from individual mistakes. He certainly didn't have to make a huge point about not being AVB by going all gung ho at first.

How are we worse? All the metrics show we are better. More goals for, less goals against, more wins, less losses. Go figure!

Since Sherwood shouldn't take any blame for a team he inherited, I guess it's only fair he doesn't get any credit either. For all of his tinkering, we're still better when he simply resorts to usual 4-2-3-1 setup.


Sorry, are you criticising him for tinkering ( bearing in mind the players available) or reverting back to the same old, same old?

This is the best one yet.

Game after game we have terrible starts and yet nothing seems to be done to try and sort it out. Now that would be a real sign of improvement.

Eriksen marginalized under AVB? No more than he has been under Sherwood.

You cannot be serious. I think whenever he has been fully fit, Sherwood has started him. AVB, probably his biggest mistake not to make more use out of our one truly creative flair player. AVB preferred all the beasts in midfield and he hardly got a look in.

Only one good performance from Ade last season? Depends on what you were expecting, because I saw plenty, but he wasn't playing as a classic target man. This season he firstly had a point to prove, but his performances have slowly deteriorated over the last couple of months and it seems his purple patch is now completely over.

Well, well. We really must have been watching different Ades last season.

Soldado showed lots of promise under AVB, though most were too busy ****ging him off for not justifying his price tag to notice. If you want to talk about marginalizing then Soldado under Sherwood is an excellent example. Good performances are rewarded with the bench.

Soldado is at last looking like a player. Under AVB he looked like a plodder

AVB didn't know about Bentaleb? I'd be shocked if he didn't know he existed. He called up youngsters for the EL squads, but unlike Sherwood, who didn't seem to know who half the first team squad was, AVB never made it a point to inform us all of any lack of knowledge.

Chadli is another one whose performances have slowly improved as he has settled into things. One thing I do blame AVB for is persisting with golden boy Townsend instead of playing the better player in Chadli.

Siggy scored a 90th minute winner and suddenly he's much improved? Nah, he's been ****e all season, probably more so in the last few weeks.

I'll credit Sherwood for not sending this season into complete self destruct mode, but it's been a close shave at times.

And I'll credit Sherwood's team for scoring goals and making us more entertaining. 4 away at Saudi Sportswashing Machine, 2 away at Benfica, 3 at OT, 3 in the second half against Soton from two goals down. Would any of these have happened under AVB without Bale? Thought not.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Just any above par performances would show that he is having some effect. I'm not seeing that - I'm seeing a team that (if we're being really generous) is playing at par and winning points because we have better players. In which case the best we can say about YTS is that he hasn't turned the team entirely to **** yet.

So again, the fact we are winning points has nothing to do with TS. The reason were winning points is down to simply having better players.

But when a clearly below par player like Naughton (I think everyone here will agree) c*cks up, it's totally and utterly down to TS?

So that is how it works then.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

And I'll credit Sherwood's team for scoring goals and making us more entertaining. 4 away at Saudi Sportswashing Machine, 2 away at Benfica, 3 at OT, 3 in the second half against Soton from two goals down. Would any of these have happened under AVB without Bale? Thought not.

Well yes, those scores could quite easily have happened under AVB without Bale. The more entertaining point is limited too, in most games we've been just as **** entertainment wise as we were under AVB.

 

[Yermiyahu]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

1. We started poorly, but I'm not sure we started particularly sluggishly. And while you and I mightn't think it's a good excuse, it is a fact that we've been poor after EL games for several seasons now, not just since Sherwood took over. The fact Sherwood was out of the stand and on the sideline screaming and shouting pretty early in the game shows our start wasn't what he'd planned either.

2. This sounds like every Spurs defence for the last 30 years to me! Not something that started 2 months ago.

On top of which, Sherwood put out a CB pairing of Sandro and Fryers (!) last week which shows how bad things are. Add in Verts' head being up his hole, Naughton having to play both sides at points this season, Dawson being crocked/not very good, Walker/Rose/Kaboul being injured for long stretches...to turn around and say somehow the shaky defence is uniquely down to some clownish training ground work by Sherwood isn't reasonable. It's about a season-long unsettled defence coupled with streaky individual performances and injuries.

Also, it has been mentioned by others previously: even during our good defensive run under AVB, a lot of the time we were flying by the seat of our pants. We were lucky not to concede more in that period. Indeed, the hammerings we took show that just beneath the surface with AVB's defensive set-up there were serious problems.

3. I most definitely saw an attacking pattern today.

First, Eriksen and Chadli (and in theory Lennon too, although he didn't do it very well) roamed all over the front of the midfield, swapping sides very often or popping up through the middle, such that they pulled the opposition defenders around the place and created chances or space. This was linked up by Soldado running all across the front line linking with those two via 1-2's, channel balls, crosses, assists etc. It was this part of the offence that lead to Eriksen's second goal, and also to his chance just before that off the little Soldado pass, and to Chadli's early break on the left from that other lovely Soldado lay off.

Add to that, when Eriksen and Chadli came inside, this left room for our FB's to get crosses in, several of which were dangerous and one of which lead to Eriksen's first goal. Ok, our FB's aren't Maldini and Alves, but the underlying instructions to them provided offensive opportunities.

Finally, our high line helped the midfield get up in support - the chalkboards from today show our rearmost midfielder was Bentaleb, and his average position was just in front of the half way line. It was in part this high line that allowed Siggy to be where he was for the winner.

So I think there was plenty of coherent attacking planning. And the proof is there - 3 goals.

4. Surely you're not saying there was no plan to press, and it was only when Sherwood came down and shouted at the players that it first occured to them to do so? That can't possibly be right. Clearly pressing is a central part of the high line they've been practising in training, and Sherwood came down because he was nuts that they weren't doing it. Just as he was when Arsenal got in behind so often early doors the other week.

Why aren't the players pressing until someone shouts at them? That is a good question and I'd like to know the answer as much as anyone.

Really good response to a really good post, Glorygloryeze and Chancer it's intelligent constructive debate like this that makes it worth ploughing through all the old pony on this board to read the good stuff.=D>

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Well yes, those scores could quite easily have happened under AVB without Bale. The more entertaining point is limited too, in most games we've been just as **** entertainment wise as we were under AVB.

What evidence do you have for this? We were averaging less than a goal a game this season under AVB.

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

as has been said above, our conversion stats were way below average, that would have normalised at some point

it shouldn't be forgotten that we took a while to click in AVB's first season as well

 

[70NTO911]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I was asked to play at right back on one occasion, in an emergency....

I had only ever played up front or as an attacking midfielder.

The manager told me that I would be alright, as long as I didn't let my winger get behind me when the ball was in the air, and that I would probably get a lot of chances to get forward as well.

They stuck a pretty average winger, not too fast, up against me......

I got done about three times in the first 15 minutes exactly like Naughton did for their first goal yesterday........

No my coach wasn't Sherwood, but my point is that surely Naughton shouldn't have been caught out like that.......

Basic stuff,

Rose is the same, and got away with that yesterday, but was giving away free kicks and the ball all through the game...

Shocking coaching.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

What evidence do you have for this? We were averaging less than a goal a game this season under AVB.

And? You've just picked out random games. Saying our average has zero impact on single statistical events.

What is your evidence against this? And averages aren't particularly compelling evidence when considering one off games.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I was asked to play at right back on one occasion, in an emergency....

I had only ever played up front or as an attacking midfielder.

The manager told me that I would be alright, as long as I didn't let my winger get behind me when the ball was in the air, and that I would probably get a lot of chances to get forward as well.

They stuck a pretty average winger, not too fast, up against me......

I got done about three times in the first 15 minutes exactly like Naughton did for their first goal yesterday........

No my coach wasn't Sherwood, but my point is that surely Naughton shouldn't have been caught out like that.......

Basic stuff,

Rose is the same, and got away with that yesterday, but was giving away free kicks and the ball all through the game...

Shocking coaching.

I don't get the parallel. Naughton is a right back and not playing out of position like you were. Either that, or you are just not very good.

 

[70NTO911]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't get the parallel. Naughton is a right back and not playing out of position like you were. Either that, or you are just not very good.

I wrote....
"but my point is that surely Naughton shouldn't have been caught out like that.......
Basic stuff....."

He should have known better. I admit that I was not very good in my first game as a right back.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So again, the fact we are winning points has nothing to do with TS. The reason were winning points is down to simply having better players.

But when a clearly below par player like Naughton (I think everyone here will agree) c*cks up, it's totally and utterly down to TS?

So that is how it works then.

That's neither the point I was making nor what I said. I'll try again as simply as I can put it.

Players playing above par - credit to YTS
Players playing at par - as expected, any manager should be able to do that
Players playing below par - YTS takes the ultimate blame

Seeing as we have the 5th or 6th most expensive squad in the PL, par performances should often yield a win.

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I completely disagree with the parameters you are judging him by. Who gives a fig how well he did or didn't do in the cups see Ramos and Dagliesh guys who won cups and yet ****ed up in the league. How would you have rated Rodgers last season? Crap in the cups and did not mount a serious top 4 challenge. Funny because loads of posters on here were laughing at him last season, bet they are not now. You dismiss our fifth place but IMO it shows that there must be a plan and it is working to a degree. I can understand if we were hovering above the drop zone or even ensconced in mid table having been left a reasonable points total by his predecessor. But we are not. We have tried managers with credentials and it has failed I would say we should see how we finish this season and try and build some momentum for next but like I said before Sherwood cannot really win with many fans.

Bottom line is you and many other fans on here are viewing him through a lens of personal dislike which will mean you will never accept him.

Cups are a measure of success, e.g. TS is doing about the same in PL as AVB, worse than AVB in the Cups

I do not have a personal dislike of TS, I actually have no issue with the guy outside of

- I believe he is massively underqualified for the job
- I believe the team is not a unit and many players are underperforming which is directly in his job criteria
- We are 5th because our players are good enough to beat most of the bottom 8 or so teams in 2nd gear

My accepting him, I clearly outlined my criteria, show me you are good enough to warrant next season via

- A good run in the cups - Failed
- 4th or significantly challenging for 4th - Failed
- A cohesive team with good tactics - Failed
- Get the most of our 7 player (100M) investment - Failed

Seeing I see none of those things, I believe the best action for the club is to go with an experienced manager to minimize risk of next season being another failure.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That's neither the point I was making nor what I said. I'll try again as simply as I can put it.

Players playing above par - credit to YTS
Players playing at par - as expected, any manager should be able to do that
Players playing below par - YTS takes the ultimate blame

Seeing as we have the 5th or 6th most expensive squad in the PL, par performances should often yield a win.

Managers should not be judged by individual player performances but the performance of the team as a whole.

The team won yesterday which is what TS is paid to do, he cannot be held accountable for Naughton's aberations for either goal because no matter what the tactics were or what TS has taught Naughton in training you cannot account for someone misjudging the bounce of the ball from a long punt downfield or for the miscontrol on the second goal.

Now if TS takes naughton to one side in training this week and "trains" him in ball control and Naughton ****s up again is that TS's fault or Naughton's? I'd say Naughton's as its his feet not working properly.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That's neither the point I was making nor what I said. I'll try again as simply as I can put it.

Players playing above par - credit to YTS
Players playing at par - as expected, any manager should be able to do that
Players playing below par - YTS takes the ultimate blame

Seeing as we have the 5th or 6th most expensive squad in the PL, par performances should often yield a win.

Firstly, drop the patronising 'Ill try and make this as simple as I can' you've no idea how intelligent I am and I've no idea how intelligent you are so that silly little game will get us nowhere.

You said that the only reason we are picking up points is because we have good players. You know fine rightly that this is a disclaimer so that any future performance can be attributed to our 'good players' and not TS no matter the circumstances.

But beside that point, you must have been reasonably happy with the second half performance against Southampton based on your par analogy above?

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Managers should not be judged by individual player performances but the performance of the team as a whole.

In general there's some truth in there (although everything ultimately is down to the manager) but when a team is making as many mistakes as we do there must be a common theme.

Maybe some players benefit more from technical instruction than they do being shouted at and publicly insulted. Good managers see problems in training before they happen in a match and find a solution.

The team won yesterday which is what TS is paid to do, he cannot be held accountable for Naughton's aberations for either goal because no matter what the tactics were or what TS has taught Naughton in training you cannot account for someone misjudging the bounce of the ball from a long punt downfield or for the miscontrol on the second goal.

You absolutely can account for it. I'd expect any half arsed manager to be looking at videos of Southampton and seeing that they like to target weak full backs with balls into the channels just like Liverpool.

He should then know who would be a weak point in that scenario or test them heavily in training to find out. There are plenty of footballers who are terrible at judging the flight of a ball - our whole team was full of them in the 90s. You just need to ensure there's cover or that you press harder when they player is one on one.

Now if TS takes naughton to one side in training this week and "trains" him in ball control and Naughton ****s up again is that TS's fault or Naughton's? I'd say Naughton's as its his feet not working properly.

If YTS rakes him to one side in training and works on it properly, that doesn't happen.

Whilst we have some weak points in the team, I suspect that our mistakes are coming more from a focus on motivation and fear of the manager's wrath/publicly humiliating the players than anything else.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Firstly, drop the patronising 'Ill try and make this as simple as I can' you've no idea how intelligent I am and I've no idea how intelligent you are so that silly little game will get us nowhere.

You said that the only reason we are picking up points is because we have good players. You know fine rightly that this is a disclaimer so that any future performance can be attributed to our 'good players' and not TS no matter the circumstances.

But beside that point, you must have been reasonably happy with the second half performance against Southampton based on your par analogy above?

If you keep misinterpreting simple points, I have no choice but to make assumptions on what you can and can't comprehend. I suspect though that you were simply being deliberately obtuse.

We should be winning that game, in fact we should be winning home games against the likes of Southampton pretty easily. YTS doesn't get credit from me for simply doing what anyone not deliberately ****ing up the team could do.

I was happy for the first 15 minutes or so of the second half. For the rest we were pretty poor again.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If you keep misinterpreting simple points, I have no choice but to make assumptions on what you can and can't comprehend. I suspect though that you were simply being deliberately obtuse.

We should be winning that game, in fact we should be winning home games against the likes of Southampton pretty easily. YTS doesn't get credit from me for simply doing what anyone not deliberately ****ing up the team could do.

I was happy for the first 15 minutes or so of the second half. For the rest we were pretty poor again.

You said above when players play above par TS will get credit, Siggy, Soldado, Kaboul and arguably Eriksen were above par. Still no credit though?

 

[Spursalot]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

You said above when players play above par TS will get credit, Siggy, Soldado, Kaboul and arguably Eriksen were above par. Still no credit though?

Four players above par?

Well Lennon, naughton, rose and dembele were below par, does that not cancel out the players who were above par?

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Four players above par?

Well Lennon, naughton, rose and dembele were below par, does that not cancel out the players who were above par?

No. It means you can criticise him for those players being below par whilst still giving him credit for the ones that were above par.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If you keep misinterpreting simple points, I have no choice but to make assumptions on what you can and can't comprehend. I suspect though that you were simply being deliberately obtuse.

We should be winning that game, in fact we should be winning home games against the likes of Southampton pretty easily. YTS doesn't get credit from me for simply doing what anyone not deliberately ****ing up the team could do.

I was happy for the first 15 minutes or so of the second half. For the rest we were pretty poor again.

The thing is you are not allowing for him coming in mid season. The limited amount of games and training time has not been factored into your analysis. I think you're pretty honest that you never liked TS and you never will like him.

What people find frustrating is that your arguments have a strong premise of scientific logic - and indeed a lot of what you evidence is logical and fascinating - but your judgment of TS is underpinned by an emotional dislike of the man. Logic has little to do with it. It makes for an interesting even if maddening debate.

Personally, I think TS has come into a tough situation, when longer term experienced Mangers were not available, and he's done extremely well in the circumstances. We haven't seen the team play particularly well under TS however. There are few signs that he has a plan or a team shape, or that the team will start to pass better, or are developing a strong defensive unit. But AVB didn't do any better. And there are two things you can credit TS with. We score more goals. And we show more fight. Sunday's turn around was not pretty, but it had TS written all over it. Players chasing down lost causes, and determined to get a result. Some credit is due.