Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Jordinho]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Some stats:

No team has conceded more from individual mistakes in one game than Arsenal. 4 against Chelsea

Half of Arsenal's conceded goals (17/34) have come in their away games against Chelsea, City and Liverpool.

Apparently, no team has conceded more goals in total from individual mistakes than Spurs.

Half of Tottenham's conceded goals (20/40) have come in four games, Chelsea away, City home and away and Liverpool at home.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Well it's 7 in our last 3 PL matches that have led to goals, ignoring any that didn't. I've been a Spurs fan for a while too and I'm pretty sure I don't remember that happening before.

I think you're being extremely harsh there.

1st and 4th Chelsea goal yes, 2nd goal was a referee mistake not defenders, 3rd goal hmmm if Sandro had left it they'd ahve got a shot of so damned if you do damned if you don't
2 goals against Soton yeah
Rosicky's goal you are joking I assume, unless you want us to defend in the oppositions half.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

And when did this start happening and how long before AVB supposedly fixed it?

I recall important late goals against us at the beginning of last season ( ? Hull and WBA) and crucial late goals also towards the latter part of last season (Fulham (h) Liverpool and Everton(a)).

Hmmm...we conceded a few late goals when he first started, at home to Norwich and West Brom. Then we went on a good run of form, beat Man United at Old Trafford, withstanding a late barrage, won at Southampton, was going pretty good for a while. We then conceded two late goals at Everton, at which point AVB changed the training. From that point onwards, we didn't concede a late goal for flipping ages. It had an immediate impact, it didn't take time to take effect.

He waited until it was an issue because otherwise...why would he be working on it? If it's not an issue it doesn't need fixing.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think you're being extremely harsh there.

1st and 4th Chelsea goal yes, 2nd goal was a referee mistake not defenders, 3rd goal hmmm if Sandro had left it they'd ahve got a shot of so damned if you do damned if you don't
2 goals against Soton yeah
Rosicky's goal you are joking I assume, unless you want us to defend in the oppositions half.

You're right about the 2nd Chelsea goal, sorry. That's 6 in 3 - I count Rosicky's goal as it was due to our defence being completely out of shape.

Let's not count it, let's call it 5 in 3 matches leading to goals - that's still way over anything I've seen before (barring the late 90s maybe, but the less said about them, the better).

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If that's a problem for said player (it is) then, yes. Although I wouldn't expect Timmeh to do it, he'd be far too busy making himself look good/the players look bad in front of the press.

I seem to remember the Liverpool match being a problem for starters. Unfortunately I don't gather data for football matches, it takes far too much time up - I prefer to analyse what others have collected. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that's noticed our full back having problems positionally with aerial balls though.

Firstly, since I asked for previous evidence to show that it is a weak point in Naughton's game specifically here are the games that Naughton played in for us under Sherwood before his error against Southampton;

English Premier Su 29Dec 2013 Tottenham 3 - 0 Stoke
English Premier Sa 11Jan 2014 Tottenham 2 - 0 C Palace
English Premier Su 19Jan 2014 Swansea 1 - 3 Tottenham
English Premier We 29Jan 2014 Tottenham 1 - 5 Emirates Marketing Project
English Premier We 12Feb 2014 Saudi Sportswashing Machine 0 - 4 Tottenham
Europa League Th 20Feb 2014 Dnipro 1 - 0 Tottenham
English Premier Su 23Feb 2014 Norwich 1 - 0 Tottenham
Europa League Th 27Feb 2014 Tottenham 3 - 1 Dnipro
English Premier Su 02Mar 2014 Tottenham 1 - 0 Cardiff
English Premier Sa 08Mar 2014 Chelsea 4 - 0 Tottenham
Europa League Th 13Mar 2014 Tottenham 1 - 3 Benfica
English Premier Su 16Mar 2014 Tottenham 0 - 1 Arsenal
Europa League Th 20Mar 2014 Benfica 2 - 2 Tottenham


Point out to me the goals that came specifically from Naughton not dealing with a ball played into the Channel or even a long punt up-field as you then changed your argument to.

Your original argument was that there was a weakness in Naughton's game in dealing with ball's into the channel, now it is that all our full-backs have problems positionally with aerial balls.

Let's get back to your original argument, then we can move on to working out if our full-backs have problems positionally with aerial balls.

So, with that in mind, like I said above, can you advise which goals from the list were due to Naughton's inability to position himself correctly to deal with aerial balls (I'll even make it aerial balls for you rather than balls into the channel like you suggested originally).

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Firstly, since I asked for previous evidence to show that it is a weak point in Naughton's game specifically here are the games that Naughton played in for us under Sherwood before his error against Southampton;

English Premier Su 29Dec 2013 Tottenham 3 - 0 Stoke
English Premier Sa 11Jan 2014 Tottenham 2 - 0 C Palace
English Premier Su 19Jan 2014 Swansea 1 - 3 Tottenham
English Premier We 29Jan 2014 Tottenham 1 - 5 Emirates Marketing Project
English Premier We 12Feb 2014 Saudi Sportswashing Machine 0 - 4 Tottenham
Europa League Th 20Feb 2014 Dnipro 1 - 0 Tottenham
English Premier Su 23Feb 2014 Norwich 1 - 0 Tottenham
Europa League Th 27Feb 2014 Tottenham 3 - 1 Dnipro
English Premier Su 02Mar 2014 Tottenham 1 - 0 Cardiff
English Premier Sa 08Mar 2014 Chelsea 4 - 0 Tottenham
Europa League Th 13Mar 2014 Tottenham 1 - 3 Benfica
English Premier Su 16Mar 2014 Tottenham 0 - 1 Arsenal
Europa League Th 20Mar 2014 Benfica 2 - 2 Tottenham


Point out to me the goals that came specifically from Naughton not dealing with a ball played into the Channel or even a long punt up-field as you then changed your argument to.

Your original argument was that there was a weakness in Naughton's game in dealing with ball's into the channel, now it is that all our full-backs have problems positionally with aerial balls.

Let's get back to your original argument, then we can move on to working out if our full-backs have problems positionally with aerial balls.

So, with that in mind, like I said above, can you advise which goals from the list were due to Naughton's inability to position himself correctly to deal with aerial balls (I'll even make it aerial balls for you rather than balls into the channel like you suggested originally).

Very clever, but I'm not going for it.

Here's a premise: Watch 20 hours of football that you've already seen or concede an argument.

You know what? I'll concede rather than do that - I barely have time to watch our live matches, let alone rewatch them.

Now let's start a new issue - concentration vs 1990s Dave Basset motivational shoutiness. Do you think that can have an effect on individual errors?

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Hmmm...we conceded a few late goals when he first started, at home to Norwich and West Brom. Then we went on a good run of form, beat Man United at Old Trafford, withstanding a late barrage, won at Southampton, was going pretty good for a while. We then conceded two late goals at Everton, at which point AVB changed the training. From that point onwards, we didn't concede a late goal for flipping ages. It had an immediate impact, it didn't take time to take effect.

He waited until it was an issue because otherwise...why would he be working on it? If it's not an issue it doesn't need fixing.

Err so he identified it as an issue at the start of the season. Did he then not do anything about it till after the Everton game?

If not, why not?

If he changed after the Everton game, what happened at Liverpool and home to Fulham?

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Very clever, but I'm not going for it.

Here's a premise: Watch 20 hours of football that you've already seen or concede an argument.

You know what? I'll concede rather than do that - I barely have time to watch our live matches, let alone rewatch them.

Now let's start a new issue - concentration vs 1990s Dave Basset motivational shoutiness. Do you think that can have an effect on individual errors?

You don't have to watch 20 hours. Since you've stated that this has always been an issue and it should have been sorted out before the error at Southampton, I figured you would at least remember one instance which points towards it being an issue. It seems not.

So we're back to the individual errors argument again rather than the full-backs one which we never got to the bottom of. Obviously it depends totally on the player. The thing about man-management is that everyone assumes there is one way suits all way to do it. What it boils down to is knowing the players individually and knowing what they respond best to.

Yes, if a player is made nervous by shouty shoutyness, then a different approach should be employed. However, either Naughton has incredible hearing, or Tim should give opera a go, because when the error happened, TS was sitting in the stands.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Err so he identified it as an issue at the start of the season. Did he then not do anything about it till after the Everton game?

If not, why not?

If he changed after the Everton game, what happened at Liverpool and home to Fulham?

Late goals conceded

Autumn 2012:
Saudi Sportswashing Machine A
West Brom H
Norwich H
Reading A
Chelski H
Emirates Marketing Project A
Arsenal A
West Ham H
Everton A

Jan 2013 onwards
Liverpool A


This season up to sacking:
West Ham H
Emirates Marketing Project A
Liverpool H


Interestingly...Late goals scored..AVB seemed to get us to be better at this rather than conceding...

2012/13:
Saudi Sportswashing Machine A
Reading A
Fulham A
Everton A
Manure H
Norwich A
Saudi Sportswashing Machine H
West Ham A
Everton H
Emirates Marketing Project H
Wigan A
Soton H
Chelski A
Stoke A
Sunderland H

This season:

Cardiff A
Hull H
Fulham A

BTW, last March when we lost at home vs Fulham we conceded early in the 2nd half and nearly equalised late when Bale crossed for Defoe...no doubt you will say this is me again being "black and white"....it helps to get your facts right though eh...

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

You don't have to watch 20 hours. Since you've stated that this has always been an issue and it should have been sorted out before the error at Southampton, I figured you would at least remember one instance which points towards it being an issue. It seems not.

Unfortunately not. What I do remember is (at some point this season) arguing that Vertonghen should be played at left back before Naughton (when Rose was injured) because he wasn't getting caught by balls like that. So unfortunately it's a memory based on a memory.

So we're back to the individual errors argument again rather than the full-backs one which we never got to the bottom of. Obviously it depends totally on the player. The thing about man-management is that everyone assumes there is one way suits all way to do it. What it boils down to is knowing the players individually and knowing what they respond best to.

Agreed there. Although wouldn't you say that on the whole, an "Up an at 'em" type of pre-match speech (ignoring, for the moment, whether or not that's what YTS does) is more likely to lead to lapses in concentration than a considered run through of objectives/tasks and reminders of items pointed out in training? Equally that kind of team talk has the advantage of creating a more energetic team that will probably battle more.

Yes, if a player is made nervous by shouty shoutyness, then a different approach should be employed. However, either Naughton has incredible hearing, or Tim should give opera a go, because when the error happened, TS was sitting in the stands.

I'm talking about how they were sent out, not what's happening during the match. I think the advice being given by Ramsey during the match is probably quite good based on what I've heard about him.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Err so he identified it as an issue at the start of the season. Did he then not do anything about it till after the Everton game?

If not, why not?

If he changed after the Everton game, what happened at Liverpool and home to Fulham?

I didn't say he identified it as an issue at the start of the season, I said it happened at Everton which prompted the change, and it lead to a significant improvement as the stats above me show. Doesn't mean we would never, ever, concede a late goal again, but it certainly helped us.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I didn't say he identified it as an issue at the start of the season, I said it happened at Everton which prompted the change, and it lead to a significant improvement as the stats above me show. Doesn't mean we would never, ever, concede a late goal again, but it certainly helped us.

So, from the games GG identified as us conceding late last season, that is 9 games up to and including the Everton game.

Either he is a really slow learner and it took him a long time to identify the obvious problem, or he realized there was a problem and it took him a long time to fix.

Either way, it was certainly not the quick fix after the Everton game you suggested earlier.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Unfortunately not. What I do remember is (at some point this season) arguing that Vertonghen should be played at left back before Naughton (when Rose was injured) because he wasn't getting caught by balls like that. So unfortunately it's a memory based on a memory.

Are you sure that was the reason or wasn't it just because Vertonghen is just a better option at left back than Naughton? Can you remember?

Agreed there. Although wouldn't you say that on the whole, an "Up an at 'em" type of pre-match speech (ignoring, for the moment, whether or not that's what YTS does) is more likely to lead to lapses in concentration than a considered run through of objectives/tasks and reminders of items pointed out in training? Equally that kind of team talk has the advantage of creating a more energetic team that will probably battle more.

Again it depends totally on what the players respond best to. It may focus some players, it may put other players off. But yes, I can see your logic. A good team-talk should be composed of elements of both methods and should be adjusted based on many many factors on the day of the game. If anything, the evidence suggests that Sherwood needs to add more 'up an at' em' stuff since, as you and many others have pointed out, we seem to start slowly.

I'm talking about how they were sent out, not what's happening during the match. I think the advice being given by Ramsey during the match is probably quite good based on what I've heard about him.

So your original argument was that TS should have prevented the error from happening through coaching as it was an issue all along. We've since established that you can't actually remember if it was an issue or not.

Now your argument is that he needs to be less up and at'em in his team talk because this results in an error prone team. Yet you want a team that comes out of the blocks and starts well and have stated above that an up and at'em team talk promotes this.

All the while you completely refuse to even remotely acknowledge that it is possible that the error came from a mistake from Naughton down to him making a basic human error that had nothing to do with how he was coached or the team talk given before the game.

You can't see the lack of rational thinking in that?

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Late goals conceded

Autumn 2012:
Saudi Sportswashing Machine A
West Brom H
Norwich H
Reading A
Chelski H
Emirates Marketing Project A
Arsenal A
West Ham H
Everton A

Jan 2013 onwards
Liverpool A


This season up to sacking:
West Ham H
Emirates Marketing Project A
Liverpool H


Interestingly...Late goals scored..AVB seemed to get us to be better at this rather than conceding...

2012/13:
Saudi Sportswashing Machine A
Reading A
Fulham A
Everton A
Manure H
Norwich A
Saudi Sportswashing Machine H
West Ham A
Everton H
Emirates Marketing Project H
Wigan A
Soton H
Chelski A
Stoke A
Sunderland H

This season:

Cardiff A
Hull H
Fulham A

BTW, last March when we lost at home vs Fulham we conceded early in the 2nd half and nearly equalised late when Bale crossed for Defoe...no doubt you will say this is me again being "black and white"....it helps to get your facts right though eh...

I don't know what you classify as a late goal in the games above. I was at the Fulham game and well recall the feeling of being kicked in the stomach when Berba scored. It may have not happened right at the end of the game ( if so, apologies) but my over-riding recollection was one of being sucker punched.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Are you sure that was the reason or wasn't it just because Vertonghen is just a better option at left back than Naughton? Can you remember?

No, I distinctly remember thinking that Verts would be less vulnerable to balls into the corner.

Again it depends totally on what the players respond best to. It may focus some players, it may put other players off. But yes, I can see your logic. A good team-talk should be composed of elements of both methods and should be adjusted based on many many factors on the day of the game. If anything, the evidence suggests that Sherwood needs to add more 'up an at' em' stuff since, as you and many others have pointed out, we seem to start slowly.

I think the evidence (Timmeh's own gloating) suggests that he's been doing a lot of shouting lately. That's a very limited approach with very limited returns. I don't think there are any players who would concentrate better based on less time spent working on concentration-based tasks.

So your original argument was that TS should have prevented the error from happening through coaching as it was an issue all along. We've since established that you can't actually remember if it was an issue or not.

No we haven't. We've established that I have neither the time nor the inclination to find the evidence.

I'm in no doubt it's an issue, I just don't care enough whether you think it is.

Now your argument is that he needs to be less up and at'em in his team talk because this results in an error prone team. Yet you want a team that comes out of the blocks and starts well and have stated above that an up and at'em team talk promotes this.

My argument has always been that "Up and at 'em" team talks are the realm of historical figures and idiots.
I don't care about starting slowly if we're in control - what I don't like is having no control over that start of the match.

All the while you completely refuse to even remotely acknowledge that it is possible that the error came from a mistake from Naughton down to him making a basic human error that had nothing to do with how he was coached or the team talk given before the game.

You can't see the lack of rational thinking in that?

The mistake was absolutely human error by Naughton. One of Timmeh's many tasks is to create an environment where human error is less likely.

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Since we are still on the Naughton thing, my restated view

- First error was Naughton, lapse of judgement, crappy footballer, whatever
- Second error is coaching, combination of not reading the offside play his defense made as well as a panic clearance

My bigger issues

- Why was Naughton playing? seriously, how many times does the kid have to play badly for TS to realize he is miles out of his depth?
- Why would you play Naughton and Rose in the same match? our two weakest links
- Someone will answer because we don't have another option, both answers I hold TS responsible for
- I said in January if we failed to strengthen the FB positions it will bite us in the ass
- Dawson was on bench, ffs play him as CB move one of Vert/Kaboul to a FB role
- With both FBs playing ****, we never tried to correct it for the whole game, even leaving an unused sub ..

So here's my prediction for the next x number of games

- Our defense will look shakey
- If we play either or both of Rose/Naughton, our FB positions will be targeted and overrun by opposition
- If Dembele/Paulinho play they will get a fair amount of possession and do **** all with it
- Eriksen will be our best chance and creating goals and being a midfielder attacking the box
- Soldado will work best with Eriksen
- Lennon/Townsend will be ineffective
- Lloris kicking is ****
- Our start will be slow and sloppy

Those are almost givens, why the **** can't TS address those things? how about

- either play a highline and pick the players that will press in midfield or don't play high line, pick ****ing one and stop making average footballers look like Modric because they have 3 days to make a pass.
- Don't play Naughton and Rose together, no matter what, rather Sandro at CB and one of CBs at FB
- Start with Eriksen, Chadli, Bentaleb, Soldado on the team sheet, and add Ade, Siggy, and one or two others as applicable/needed/fit
- Tell Lloris to short pass it out (and have him work on kicking in the ****ing training ground)

Have everyone on the team know who to pass it to, e.g. get the ball to Eriksen, Bentaleb first
Have the team make themselves available for a pass (run off the ball)
Have the team be aware that Soldado actually makes runs and you should try and get the ****ing ball to him in the box

This is the core of my problem with TS

- He's opted for more attacking players (either type or number of), but really isn't addressing a ton of basic issues that he may/may not have inherited ..

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Since we are still on the Naughton thing, my restated view

- First error was Naughton, lapse of judgement, crappy footballer, whatever
- Second error is coaching, combination of not reading the offside play his defense made as well as a panic clearance Not an error in coaching, you can coach the offside trap, it still relies on players to employ it correctly

My bigger issues

- Why was Naughton playing? seriously, how many times does the kid have to play badly for TS to realize he is miles out of his depth? Lack of an alternative to play there
- Why would you play Naughton and Rose in the same match? our two weakest links Lack of an alternative
- Someone will answer because we don't have another option, both answers I hold TS responsible for
- I said in January if we failed to strengthen the FB positions it will bite us in the ass and it may well do but who was available for the price we would be willing to pay?
- Dawson was on bench, ffs play him as CB move one of Vert/Kaboul to a FB role All three are returning from injury, not confident that any of them are near 100% fit, playing all 3 could have had major implications if a reoccurance of said injuries happened during the game
- With both FBs playing ****, we never tried to correct it for the whole game, even leaving an unused sub ..

So here's my prediction for the next x number of games

- Our defense will look shakey Regardless of who has played it has done all season
- If we play either or both of Rose/Naughton, our FB positions will be targeted and overrun by opposition We may not have any other option depending on the various levels of fitness of the rest of the defence
- If Dembele/Paulinho play they will get a fair amount of possession and do **** all with it I can't dance at all there, neither player should be playing for Spurs again
- Eriksen will be our best chance and creating goals and being a midfielder attacking the box
- Soldado will work best with Eriksen
- Lennon/Townsend will be ineffective
- Lloris kicking is ****
- Our start will be slow and sloppy

Those are almost givens, why the **** can't TS address those things? how about

- either play a highline and pick the players that will press in midfield or don't play high line, pick ****ing one and stop making average footballers look like Modric because they have 3 days to make a pass.
- Don't play Naughton and Rose together, no matter what, rather Sandro at CB and one of CBs at FB
- Start with Eriksen, Chadli, Bentaleb, Soldado on the team sheet, and add Ade, Siggy, and one or two others as applicable/needed/fit
- Tell Lloris to short pass it out (and have him work on kicking in the ****ing training ground)

Have everyone on the team know who to pass it to, e.g. get the ball to Eriksen, Bentaleb first
Have the team make themselves available for a pass (run off the ball)
Have the team be aware that Soldado actually makes runs and you should try and get the ****ing ball to him in the box

This is the core of my problem with TS

- He's opted for more attacking players (either type or number of), but really isn't addressing a ton of basic issues that he may/may not have inherited ..

Oh the players are still the same so the problems are ones he inherited.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think you're being extremely harsh there.

1st and 4th Chelsea goal yes, 2nd goal was a referee mistake not defenders, 3rd goal hmmm if Sandro had left it they'd ahve got a shot of so damned if you do damned if you don't
2 goals against Soton yeah
Rosicky's goal you are joking I assume, unless you want us to defend in the oppositions half.

In fairness, all anyone wants Rose to do is defend in his half a bit more/better?

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

In fairness, all anyone wants Rose to do is defend in his half a bit more/better?

Agreed but it was hardly a "defensive error" that caused the goal.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

No, I distinctly remember thinking that Verts would be less vulnerable to balls into the corner.

So a memory based on a memory supported by another memory but you are not willing to make any attempt whatsoever to provide any facts to support these memories?

I think the evidence (Timmeh's own gloating) suggests that he's been doing a lot of shouting lately. That's a very limited approach with very limited returns. I don't think there are any players who would concentrate better based on less time spent working on concentration-based tasks.

Timmeh's own gloating has been based on shouting he's been doing at half time, your point was that he's doing too much shouting before the game. You're shifting those goal posts again.

No we haven't. We've established that I have neither the time nor the inclination to find the evidence.

I'm in no doubt it's an issue, I just don't care enough whether you think it is.

We'll if your not going to take any steps to back up your own opinion and you don't respect mine enough to even discuss it then the discussion can't go any further.......................On a board for discussing matters relating to Tottenham Hotspur..............Which is run by you.

A strange stance there from you do you not think?

My argument has always been that "Up and at 'em" team talks are the realm of historical figures and idiots.
I don't care about starting slowly if we're in control - what I don't like is having no control over that start of the match.

A fair point and not one I disagreed with, although in order to control a game you need to keep possession, and in order to keep possession in the premier league you need to pass the ball quickly and crisply, and in order to do that from the beginning you have to start quickly.

The mistake was absolutely human error by Naughton. One of Timmeh's many tasks is to create an environment where human error is less likely.

No-matter what environment is created the risk of human error never goes away completely. My issue is not with you believing that it is Tim Sherwood's fault, it is with your refusal to recognise the possibility that it could be nothing to do with him.