Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Craig_J]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The answer to that you won't like, but I'll give a reason

- To me, his chance is up, he needed to make a good run in one of the cups and/or seriously challenge for 4th, that obviously would have been his mandate taking the job.

TS's problem is he always was a gamble, an established manager can ask for a full season or more to be judged, because he has credentials that state he's done it before, therefore is worth the risk (think of the idea of if you had to pick one striker between Soldado/Kane to play every game for rest of season, which one and why? answer = Soldado, because his record says he can do it again)

Tottenham is a 120M+ pound business a year that cannot risk the results of another season on a "maybe" with no history/credentials/indicator that it's worth the risk, hope is not a strategy.

Great post

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Steff, I thought we were pretty good against the goons after that momentary Lapse that led to the 1st goal. I don't think he needs a world class manager above him, he clearly won't accept that, but rather a very good coaching team. I remember reading that Dagliesh whilst at Blackburn took very little of the coaching as he left most of it to Mick Harford. Equally Redknapp always surrounded himself with a large coaching entourage. Would be interesting to hear your opinions on Chris Ramsay

Ferguson and Wenger also left/leave most of the coaching to their assistants.

 

[indianspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

LVG is still very much a training ground coach, even at 62 years old

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

How does a player being marginalised look to an outsider? Does it look different to a player who has shown in training that he hasn't yet adapted?



It's not been as good as I'd like this season, but it was a hell of a lot better before YTS. Consider the right-hand side of the following two images:

AVB:

YTS:

(Figures slightly out of date but I have a life so I don't count this **** myself)

Not only are we giving away a whole extra shot per game under YTS, but that extra shot is coming from the prime zone (inside the width of the 6yd box from goal line to the edge of the 18yd box). Under YTS we are giving away 1.3 shots per game from inside the 6 yard box.

I'll quote the rest as I can't phrase it any better myself:



And all this before the regression monster came out from under little Timmy's bed to give him a big old scare.

Yet, according to those figures, we are conceding less goals under TS and scoring more. So by that reckoning I don't give a **** where people are shooting from if we are conceding less and I really don't see the point of your argument. 1.3 shots per game more inside the 6 yard box, big deal, could that be down to where the ball just happens to be passed to by the opposition or has TS got some kind of ball magnet in the back of our goal that forces it into the six yard box. I'm not 100% at this whole managerial stuff but i'm sure he has no control over where the OPPOSITION put the ball.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yet, according to those figures, we are conceding less goals under TS and scoring more. So by that reckoning I don't give a **** where people are shooting from if we are conceding less and I really don't see the point of your argument. 1.3 shots per game more inside the 6 yard box, big deal, could that be down to where the ball just happens to be passed to by the opposition or has TS got some kind of ball magnet in the back of our goal that forces it into the six yard box. I'm not 100% at this whole managerial stuff but i'm sure he has no control over where the OPPOSITION put the ball.

Of course he does - it's called defending. The idea is to stop the opposition from getting shots away from dangerous locations.

If you are allowing a lot of shots from dangerous locations then you are defending poorly. If, like Timmeh you find yourself on the right end of an enormous slice of 'luck' then you will concede fewer but that doesn't mean you're doing your job better.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

You seem to have conveniently ignored Swansea, Hull x2 and the European games, although you have conceded Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I said ADD that to the city and Liverpool demolitions and it is clear as day we were not exactly watertight at the back earlier this season - even with a full complement of defensive players.

I agree that at some point, TS will need to be judged on a stand alone basis. However, I personally don't think that time is yet.

Again, I invite you to say how long it would be to give TS a " fair chance". So far I haven't heard that from you.

I never understood how the Swansea game is held up as some example of a poor performance under AVB. It wasn't the greatest, it didn't bring the house down, but we fully deserved to win that game.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

How does a player being marginalised look to an outsider? Does it look different to a player who has shown in training that he hasn't yet adapted?



It's not been as good as I'd like this season, but it was a hell of a lot better before YTS. Consider the right-hand side of the following two images:

AVB:

YTS:

(Figures slightly out of date but I have a life so I don't count this **** myself)

Not only are we giving away a whole extra shot per game under YTS, but that extra shot is coming from the prime zone (inside the width of the 6yd box from goal line to the edge of the 18yd box). Under YTS we are giving away 1.3 shots per game from inside the 6 yard box.

I'll quote the rest as I can't phrase it any better myself:



And all this before the regression monster came out from under little Timmy's bed to give him a big old scare.

All the stats in the world won't change the fact that we are 1 point off where we were this time last year with a settled squad and the 3rd best player in the world in our team.

TS has to get some credit for that. As does AVB. You know it, and I know it, you just won't admit it.

 

[Seedy Ron]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

TS's problem is he always was a gamble, an established manager can ask for a full season or more to be judged, because he has credentials that state he's done it before, therefore is worth the risk (think of the idea of if you had to pick one striker between Soldado/Kane to play every game for rest of season, which one and why? answer = Soldado, because his record says he can do it again)

Tottenham is a 120M+ pound business a year that cannot risk the results of another season on a "maybe" with no history/credentials/indicator that it's worth the risk, hope is not a strategy.

=D>

 

[Jordinho]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Thank you. So don't blame TS for something that has been part of the team make up all season.

You claim it was control under AVB, I say it was possession for possessios sake and completely lacking in any form of attacking ideas under AVB. We will never agree on that, but for you to imply that this now only happening under or because of TS is plainly, self evidently wrong. Even the poorer teams were creating many chances against us under AVB - or have you conveniently forgotten that as well?.

No, but I blame him for making us worse. The only thing Sherwood has managed in 3 months is to allow opposition midfield runners the freedom of the pitch and increase the number of goals conceded from individual mistakes. He certainly didn't have to make a huge point about not being AVB by going all gung ho at first. It is possible to make adjustments and improve a team, I believe it's called coaching. Pulis shored up Palace from day one.

Crystal Palace under Holloway: P8 W1D0L7 GF:6 GA:17

Crystal Palace under Pulis: P19 W7D3L9 GF:13: GA:17

Strange isn't it? And one had 18 months, two pre-seasons and over 100m spent on players for him. It's a funny old world.

Since Sherwood shouldn't take any blame for a team he inherited, I guess it's only fair he doesn't get any credit either. For all of his tinkering, we're still better when he simply resorts to usual 4-2-3-1 setup.

tS has had to work with both hands tied behind his back. Despite this, I would say that there has been some signs of improvement. We look much more likely to score goals - compare number of goals scored under both managers.

There are some improvements in certain players too IMO. Eriksen is showing his true potential after being marginalised under AVB. With the exception of Chelsea away, AVB couldn't get a single decent performance from Ade last year and exiled him this season. Soldado looked isolated and bereft under AVB, but there are significant signs of improvement from him in the last few games. AVB appeared not to know Bentelab even existed and he has had a few good games for us. Chadli and Sigi seem to have found an extra gear too.

Not yet brilliant, but there has been some signs of improvement.

This is the best one yet.

Game after game we have terrible starts and yet nothing seems to be done to try and sort it out. Now that would be a real sign of improvement.

Eriksen marginalized under AVB? No more than he has been under Sherwood. His potential was quite obvious all along and the fact that he's showing it more frequently has very little to do with Sherwood and everything to do with settling down and getting to grips with a new league.

Only one good performance from Ade last season? Depends on what you were expecting, because I saw plenty, but he wasn't playing as a classic target man. This season he firstly had a point to prove, but his performances have slowly deteriorated over the last couple of months and it seems his purple patch is now completely over.

Soldado showed lots of promise under AVB, though most were too busy ****ging him off for not justifying his price tag to notice. If you want to talk about marginalizing then Soldado under Sherwood is an excellent example. Good performances are rewarded with the bench.

AVB didn't know about Bentaleb? I'd be shocked if he didn't know he existed. He called up youngsters for the EL squads, but unlike Sherwood, who didn't seem to know who half the first team squad was, AVB never made it a point to inform us all of any lack of knowledge.

Chadli is another one whose performances have slowly improved as he has settled into things. One thing I do blame AVB for is persisting with golden boy Townsend instead of playing the better player in Chadli.

Siggy scored a 90th minute winner and suddenly he's much improved? Nah, he's been ****e all season, probably more so in the last few weeks.

I'll credit Sherwood for not sending this season into complete self destruct mode, but it's been a close shave at times.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I never understood how the Swansea game is held up as some example of a poor performance under AVB. It wasn't the greatest, it didn't bring the house down, but we fully deserved to win that game.

I didn't say we were poor or didnt deserve to win, I said Swansea created several chances in the first half. That was the question that I was responding to.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

All the stats in the world won't change the fact that we are 1 point off where we were this time last year with a settled squad and the 3rd best player in the world in our team.

TS has to get some credit for that. As does AVB. You know it, and I know it, you just won't admit it.

I think such a broad statement includes so many variables that you haven't even begun to consider/discuss that it's a fairly irrelevant point.

 

[Jordinho]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Of course he does - it's called defending. The idea is to stop the opposition from getting shots away from dangerous locations.

If you are allowing a lot of shots from dangerous locations then you are defending poorly. If, like Timmeh you find yourself on the right end of an enormous slice of 'luck' then you will concede fewer but that doesn't mean you're doing your job better.

Paul Scholes at Old Trafford last season. Lots of sideways passing, no penetration.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I didn't say we were poor or didnt deserve to win, I said Swansea created several chances in the first half. That was the question that I was responding to.

I really don't think they did. Not real chances like Southampton were getting yesterday. We were largely comfortable in that match.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think such a broad statement includes so many variables that you haven't even begun to consider/discuss that it's a fairly irrelevant point.

They've been discussed at length by you, me and everyone else here.

What it boils down to is that winning matches gets you three points. AVB won enough football matches to keep us on track (there or there abouts) with last years points total without Gareth Bale. He was then rightly or wrongly sacked. He does however deserve some credit for the points total he achieved.

Then TS took the reigns, and again, he won enough football matches to continue (there or there abouts) to keep us on track with last seasons points total without Gareth Bale. He deserves some credit for the points total he he has achieved to date. At the end of the season he may be rightly or wrongly sacked.

Only his results from now on in (or maybe not even them) will determine if he is sacked, but to date as in things that have actually happened, he deserves some credit.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

You seem to have conveniently ignored Swansea, Hull x2 and the European games, although you have conceded Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I said ADD that to the city and Liverpool demolitions and it is clear as day we were not exactly watertight at the back earlier this season - even with a full complement of defensive players.

I agree that at some point, TS will need to be judged on a stand alone basis. However, I personally don't think that time is yet.

Again, I invite you to say how long it would be to give TS a " fair chance". So far I haven't heard that from you.

No i didn't ignore the Swansea, Hull and the West Ham games: I said I thought you were talking codswallop. YOU have only now brought up European games; happy to debate and compare those with TS if you want, but I think we both know it wont be pretty.
Can't be bothered to talk about the defensive injuries vs Liverpool: it's clear for all to see (though no doubt you'll see we had our first choice defence against them).

As you remeber I don't think we should have given such a big job to TS in the first place; if AVB was the wrong man with not enough experience TS was both x100.
In light of that happening I have not seen anything in the last 3 months that tell me TS is our long-term answer: what chance i have begrudgingly given him he has shown himself to not be capable of managing Tottenham Hotsour FC in the long-term. Not from the way he carries himself, not from the way he manages the squad and not from the way he coaches the team.
Whether you think that is fair or not really isn't the point: a team with the size and stature of Spurs should not be having to rely on a novice manager who is 'winging it.'
If he is still managing by the start of next season it will be because a) Levy has totally ditched his DoF model or b) we litterally cannot find ANYONE with the same experience as AVB to come and manage the team/squad.
I would put in a option of c) of us finishing in the top 4, but I think we both know that was always going to be a tough ask with the prrevious manager, never mind a managerial novice. Anyone who thinks that was possible was/is basing that purely on blind faith.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Of course he does - it's called defending. The idea is to stop the opposition from getting shots away from dangerous locations.

If you are allowing a lot of shots from dangerous locations then you are defending poorly. If, like Timmeh you find yourself on the right end of an enormous slice of 'luck' then you will concede fewer but that doesn't mean you're doing your job better.

Likewise it doesn't mean TS is doing his job worse, it could be the defenders are doing their job worse. Take yesterday's goals for example both scored from within the 18 yard box and both from individual errors that could not be accounted for through poor tactics. TS can have the best tactical nous in the world and impart it on every player but if they don't perform there's not a lot he can do about it.

 

[chancer]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

What we should be asking is this: Do we want change, or do we want the status quo?

I'd like change. Something different. A new approach.

And counter-intuitive as it may seem, change does not mean the likes of LvG or Prandelli. Those types of guys are actually status quo candidates. Maybe they are better than what we've had before, but it's still the same - chasing pots of gold at the end of rainbows. Might work, might not. Same old same old.

What we haven't tried before is promotion of youth from within, and we won't often get a better chance to try it than now with Sherwood. That's why he is the change candidate, not some Galactico coach from outside.

Sherwood is also the only one available now that could conceivably become our Wenger or SAF. After all, LvG's lifespan at Spurs would be 4 years tops. Even FdB would probably be the same before he gets pinched by Barca or Bayern, or sacked by Levy. Sherwood might actually last to build something.

And if Sherwood fluffs it - and it's 50/50 that he might - who cares? We've been fukking around for over 50 years, so what the hell does another season matter? There will still be shedloads of world class coaches available after we boot poor Timbo out on his hole.

 

[Seedy Ron]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

What we haven't tried before is promotion of youth from within, and we won't often get a better chance to try it than now with Sherwood. That's why he is the change candidate, not some Galactico coach from outside.

Sherwood is also the only one available now that could conceivably become our Wenger or SAF. After all, LvG's lifespan at Spurs would be 4 years tops. Even FdB would probably be the same before he gets pinched by Barca or Bayern, or sacked by Levy. Sherwood might actually last to build something.

How so? The more qualified Steffen Freund sits next to him on the bench, as does the more qualified Chris Ramsay, why Sherwood?

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

What we should be asking is this: Do we want change, or do we want the status quo?

I'd like change. Something different. A new approach.

And counter-intuitive as it may seem, change does not mean the likes of LvG or Prandelli. Those types of guys are actually status quo candidates. Maybe they are better than what we've had before, but it's still the same - chasing pots of gold at the end of rainbows. Might work, might not. Same old same old.

What we haven't tried before is promotion of youth from within, and we won't often get a better chance to try it than now with Sherwood. That's why he is the change candidate, not some Galactico coach from outside.

Sherwood is also the only one available now that could conceivably become our Wenger or SAF. After all, LvG's lifespan at Spurs would be 4 years tops. Even FdB would probably be the same before he gets pinched by Barca or Bayern, or sacked by Levy. Sherwood might actually last to build something.

And if Sherwood fluffs it - and it's 50/50 that he might - who cares? We've been fukking around for over 50 years, so what the hell does another season matter? There will still be shedloads of world class coaches available after we boot poor Timbo out on his hole.

The answer should be

- Hire a LvG/Prandelli type, get immediate results
- Have them work with Baldini to build a club ethos/culture through youth/reserve teams ala a Barca/Milan/Ajax
- Establish that and then see if promoting from within is an option (as LvG/etc. will likely only be here for 3-4 years tops)
- If TS wants to work within that structure and convince folks he'll be the man in 3-4 years, fine ...

I have two really big problems with your 50/50 comment

- First is you don't take 50/50 odds on a multi hundred of million pound business
- Why does anyone think TS if successful would loyal to us? if you want to take a punt, Hoddle would have been that person, you know he loves the club and would retire here if his results justified it. If TS somehow managed to make some great season and get us CL and/or win a cup, he would **** off at the first better offer.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Likewise it doesn't mean TS is doing his job worse, it could be the defenders are doing their job worse. Take yesterday's goals for example both scored from within the 18 yard box and both from individual errors that could not be accounted for through poor tactics. TS can have the best tactical nous in the world and impart it on every player but if they don't perform there's not a lot he can do about it.

TS is in charge of the defenders. If they're not performing it's his fault - that's what being the manager is about.

He has to create the environment and mindset where they don't make mistakes - most other managers do that, there's no reason (except for lack of ability/intelligence) why he can't.