Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[90291Spur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm beginning to think it's a policy mandated from higher up, because our last few managers have failed to get stuck in at times when I felt taking a 3 match touchline ban to show some balls would've been very very smart long-term. In Sherwood's defence, I think complaining last night would've looked a bit silly given the context of the match plus he is fighting to keep a job he might not have regardless, thus he will be minding his Ps and Qs…no, the biggest opportunity missed from last night would be NOT address our glaring need for a left-hand side IMO.

What he could have done was make a strong point about the officiating while also talking about how ridiculously good Emirates Marketing Project were last night. The two are not mutually exclusive. And when you are up against a team in Emirates Marketing Project's form it doesn't help when multiple bad decisions go against you.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

This is something i don't get. Why is it "behind closed doors" every time it's in relation to Sherwood being torn apart by certain posters relentlessly ....but it's made public near enough all the time when a poster/posters complains about the constant posts directed at Sherwood?

Tbh i'm still a bit annoyed that i was told to quit jumping on the posts of a certain poster that makes it his life time goal to ridicule the manager AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY. I accept when you tell me to stop when i'm in the wrong...but has it really come to the point where i can't even point out the ridiculous nature of someone posts (that is spreading this **** through EVERY thread). If he's allowed to express his opinion at every opportunity, surely we're allowed to counter it...or even ridicule it within reason.

Right.
In the ideal world perhaps.
But KD, in the spirit of what you've just said, the moment I say something about some opinions here, I am rebuked, accused of various acts of heinousness and asked to just avoid people please. If that's the way people want it, then unfortunately, on the admin side of things we HAVE to try and tone down anything which might offend someone. Frankly, and on a very PERSONAL basis, I lament the fact that a good old fashioned debate and disagreement cannot end in a 'fair enough/agree to disagree', digital handshake and moving on. Alas it seems impossible in some cases.
My nature is to be conversational and opinionated; I'd like to think I can also accept when I'm wrong, and accept when there is a differing view. I'd also like to think that I am capable of changing my mind if a better point is proven.
As an example, I think Scara has been waaaay too harsh on Sherwood, and we have exchanged several opinions with each other, but equally, we both respect the fact that we HAVE different opinions and that one is not any more correct than the other.

It is a shame that the art of passionate debate is lost on many, because it leads to what we currently have to do. It's a bit like modern football generally, people getting ****ed off at Walcott because he made a 2-0 gesture having taken dog's abuse for ages, people not allowed to sing certain songs…

Again, please let me be clear that this is me, ThfcSteff, sharing a personal opinion and that I am not posting as a mod mate.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm beginning to think it's a policy mandated from higher up, because our last few managers have failed to get stuck in at times when I felt taking a 3 match touchline ban to show some balls would've been very very smart long-term. In Sherwood's defence, I think complaining last night would've looked a bit silly given the context of the match plus he is fighting to keep a job he might not have regardless, thus he will be minding his Ps and Qs…no, the biggest opportunity missed from last night would be NOT address our glaring need for a left-hand side IMO.

If Sherwood is as forthright as we are lead to believe, I am sure that he would have mentioned this.

 

[veron23]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

4231 vs 442

4231 only works if the number 10 drops back when you dont have the ball. if he doesnt drop back its just as "weak" as a 442. its even weaker if the wingers stay up the pitch.
I much prefer a 442 with a wonky, as the wonky even if lazy always tucks in a lot easier as there is less space to track into. plus one of the strikers drops deep and the wingers are naturally a few paces deeper than in 4231 so effectively there is a 5 man wall as opposed a 4231 which looks like a 5 man wall but is actually 2 if the wingers and number 10 dont drop back. 442 is also more defensive as ther is 2 strikers so a long ball/holding up play option comes into effect as opposed to our defenders knocking the ball up the pitch only to see it come back within 3 seconds.

yesterday was living proof as silva (the wonky) showed us. on tuesday southampton 433 also proved this constantly over running arsenals 4231.

4231 seems to have a mystique of being more solid but its really not unless the players tuck in or press.

Thats another problem - our front 3 dont press!

Problem number 3) the biggest problem of all which ive said since TS first game. the gap between our mid and def is so scary that we were an accident waiting to happy. silva or any good player playing in between the lines will have a field day.

id rather a 442 with eriksen as the wonky anyday over a 4231. its more defensive if played correctly (i.e eriksen tucking in and adebayor dropping deep) and also more attacking as lennons crosses will have 2 to aim at instead of one.
im fed up of watching us giving the ball up the pitch but seeing it come straight back because of our lack of hold up play/options. in a 442 this wont happen.

most importantly a 442 means all players are close together. yesterday even when it was 11 v 11 eriksen ade lennon and sig were miles apart from each other - there was no link play at all which is a flaw of the formation more than the players.
i dont think TS is clever enough to spot the fact that we have played so far apart from each other as its the same mistakes in every game so at least in a 442 wonky it fixes this issue by default.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

What he could have done was make a strong point about the officiating while also talking about how ridiculously good Emirates Marketing Project were last night. The two are not mutually exclusive. And when you are up against a team in Emirates Marketing Project's form it doesn't help when multiple bad decisions go against you.

I have been reflecting on it today, and it as crushing how much better than us they were. Their performance deserved double-digits. They were breath-taking, and Aguero? Christ al****ingmighty, what a player...

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

No, I (and many others) have repeatedly made the point that your screening player doesn't have to be a DM - hasn't had to since the 80s.

There's no reason why Bentaleb can't sit in the way Carrick does and there's no reason Capoue can't play alongside him if you want him to push further up (unless you're insisting on a four man midfield).

This is where I think Sherwood has to lean very very heavily on seniors such as Dembele. Bentaleb is a youngster with great potential who needs to be given a defined role. Seniors can help him out there. Dembele, last night, was all over the shop. Bentaleb was often left wondering WTF he was meant to be doing. This, I agree, needs to be addressed by Tim quickly as he is asking Bentaleb to have the relationship of a senior player with Dembele i.e. an unspoken understanding, which they clearly do not have. Capoue is a real problem; there is an almost Toure-esque player in there, but he just doesn't seem to give enough of a ****. Perhaps some better man-management?

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

This is something i don't get. Why is it "behind closed doors" every time it's in relation to Sherwood being torn apart by certain posters relentlessly ....but it's made public near enough all the time when a poster/posters complains about the constant posts directed at Sherwood?

Tbh i'm still a bit annoyed that i was told to quit jumping on the posts of a certain poster that makes it his life time goal to ridicule the manager AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY. I accept when you tell me to stop when i'm in the wrong...but has it really come to the point where i can't even point out the ridiculous nature of someone posts (that is spreading this **** through EVERY thread). If he's allowed to express his opinion at every opportunity, surely we're allowed to counter it...or even ridicule it within reason.

It's behind closed doors in the same way that many of the discussions that we have had are.

If we go public every time we ask someone to calm it down or stop posting in a particular way it would make it very difficult for some people to post here and there is a chance that other posters may just throw it back at them.

Believe it or not, we just want a football forum where people can exchange views and discuss our club without every thread descending into bickering and in fighting.

"Jumping on another poster" as you put it is against site rules. It is not your job to police this place, no matter how provocative you think someone is being. Jumping on people just inflames the situation and makes people even more entrenched in their position.

If you think that a poster is breaking the site rules, report it. We look at and discuss every reported post but for the reasons given above, we feel that it would not be right to break confidence and make those discussions or the outcome public.

 

[90291Spur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I have been reflecting on it today, and it as crushing how much better than us they were. Their performance deserved double-digits. They were breath-taking, and Aguero? Christ al****ingmighty, what a player...

You are spot on Steff. During the game I posted that they looked like Bayern they way they swarmed when we had possession. They worked their socks off chasing and cutting down angles and asserting pressure and when they had the ball that same movement continued to give them multiple options.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I have a 9 month old son, unfortunately I miss chunks of matches now where I would normally be a bit more attentive - that chunk was a part of that. I also missed after then sending off, but I was quite happy to miss that bit.

Take a look again at the match - there's so much of their play that goes into the channels. It's not just us, that's how they play - ball over the top to Suarez/Sturridge, beat their man, goal.

And watch the 15 mins after half time too - we had every chance of getting back into that game and were by far the better side until the sending off.

I said to my mates last night that I could not figure out who's decision it was to believe that Danny Rose was good enough to be our first-choice left back, and that the whole Daws situation is heartbreaking.

I watched Chiriches closely last night too. The amount of times he had the ball and kept it, trying to look for someone to pass to as opposed to lumping it forward, was almost countless. yes, he gets caught now and again, but I have great hope he can develop into a superb defender once the quality around him is greater. Right now, he is on the left on the partnership, leaving him dealing with Rose and whoever else we chuck out there in lieu of a proper left-footed midfielder/wide man (Sigurdsson was beyond pathetic last night, just terrible - I cannot even get into it any further!). But Vlad STILL tried to play. Daws is really heartbreaking. his spirit, his effort, his grit, his determination, all of that is unquestionable. But simply put, whatever legs he had are gone. He simply has to play deep or else he will get done. And against a side like City, he has next to no hope. Yet he is our club skipper and a MASSIVE presence, so with all the upheaval, it would be foolish to drop him until the summer when such decisions can be made with a full season ahead.

Vertonghen's injury has been an enormous blow for several reasons; my hope for the silver lining there was that we would get a left-back in, alas, we appear to not be bothered. I would've thrown a lot of money at Everton for Baines personally, but alas we did not. Thus we will likely be pressed into playing him there when he returns. Such a waste...

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

You are spot on Steff. During the game I posted that they looked like Bayern they way they swarmed when we had possession. They worked their socks off chasing and cutting down angles and asserting pressure and when they had the ball that same movement continued to give them multiple options.

I coached my sides to 'defend from the front' and always asked my front players to pressure the defenders high-up the pitch and force them into hoofing it/coughing up the ball. If everyone is on the same page it's fantastic to watch, and City did it supremely last night. Their match against Barca will be something, and on this form, I can see City doing them.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think he is accusing you of double standards... problem is that compared with the views expressed by Scara and Gutterboy on Tim, your views on AVB (the ones quoted) sound almost complementary.

Thanks. I know what he is TRYING to do, but it was a poor comparison and badly made. As you say, nothing in my questioning of AVB has been personal, vitriolic or non-football related - unlike the quite pathetic anti-Sherwoodism there has been on here by some.

My questioning of the style of play AVB was delivering were QUESTIONS I raised AFTER three months of seeing it. Furthermore, he had a full pre-season and the opportunity of bringing in at least some of his own players. Raising questions and giving reasons for those questions, on a Spurs forum is entirely valid and based on my opinions of the FOOTBALL he was serving up, nothing more, nothing less. It certainly wasnt informed by some pre-judged prejudice that he and others have shown on here toward Sherwood.

I am grateful to you, DTA, for acknowledging that and it's a shame others can't also wait to give an assessment based on football alone. When I asked Scarra how long one should give TS before judging him, he replied at least to the end of the season and more realistically next season, AFTER he has had a pre-season of his own and brought in some of his own players. I agree that is the time to judge. Legitimate questions of style, selection, tactics etc are fine in the meantime, but, please make them from a rational, not predetermined viewpoint, coloured by prejudice on how he looks, what he speaks like etc etc.

Give him time before rushing to judgement AFTER he has had time to prove himself - one way or the other. Is that too much to ask?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Personally I'd've stated Capoue, Dembele and Holtby as a flat 3 across midfield with Eriksen and Lennon in behind Ade.

I'm not saying we would have won the game like that, but we'd at least have been able to get the ball and shield our CBs.

That first 35-40 minutes was about the most one-side contest I can remember seeing in the EPL. It was like watching a first team play the U16s.

Nah, Liverpool at home was far more one sided. That game could have easily been 10-0.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Nah, Liverpool at home was far more one sided. That game could have easily been 10-0.

I agree. It has been a long time since I have seen us fold like we did in that game. The players looked like they had never played together before.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Absoloutley pathetic, disgusting, disgraceful and no class what so ever. And I'm talking about the anti-Sherwood phalanx here, not the manager.

Swear at one point our fans had some class, now I'm beginning to see why rival fans have the impression Spurs fans are deluded if they carry on as they do at times online.

Take it people would rather us play 4-5-1, create no chances, full on George Graham-esque football and chant '1-0 to the Tottenham' on the rare (and I don't mean that lightly) occasion it works then see someone actually attempt to give it a go, even with players out injured, and make an effort to do it the Tottenham way.

Thought to dare is to do was our motto. I can't see how some can be pleased.



Post more often mate, this forum can do with an injection of sense and brain cells.

Brilliant post. You yourself should post more often. It's embarrassing how deluded our fans are, we are worse than Liverpool fans. Sherwood is disliked because of his background even though he played for Spurs FFS and Redknapp was hated because he had the nerve to "only finish 4th". Funny how all the rational talk of how our wage bill is massively lower than our rivals went out the window when Redknapp was manager.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Brilliant post. You yourself should post more often. It's embarrassing how deluded our fans are, we are worse than Liverpool fans. Sherwood is disliked because of his background even though he played for Spurs FFS and Redknapp was hated because he had the nerve to "only finish 4th". Funny how all the rational talk of how our wage bill is massively lower than our rivals went out the window when Redknapp was manager.

I really think that it is misleading to generalise like this. There aren't many posters that have been overly critical of Sherwood and I do not think that there was a melt down after last nights game. Like always there is a vocal minority who are against a managers, a vast majority who are broadly supportive but are watching to see how they develop and a group who are vocally supportive, often as a reaction against the previous manager. It's the majority in the middle that suffer because they get caught up in the constant bickering no matter who is in charge.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Scara and Gutterboy, I fully understand why you are skeptical when it comes to Sherwood and his lack of experience, I get it, I myself am still skeptical. But just why are you so determined to see him fail or give hime so little credit whenever we get a decent result? I'm beginning to wonder just how much you actually support the club given your treatemnt of some of the managers. I swear we could beat Bayern Munich at the Allianz and you would find a way to taint the achievement. We were getting pasted left, right and centre under AVB, one of those games was WEST ****ING HAM a team that haven't won at WHL since 1999 and are dog**** away from home and always have been. We lost to the very same team we lost last night but by a bigger scoreline in November despite playing Sandro.

We were scoring little and letting in goals for fun under the last manager, it's almost like you believe we sacked Fergie and replaced him with Steve Kean.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I really think that it is misleading to generalise like this. There aren't many posters that have been overly critical of Sherwood and I do not think that there was a melt down after last nights game. Like always there is a vocal minority who are against a managers, a vast majority who are broadly supportive but are watching to see how they develop and a group who are vocally supportive, often as a reaction against the previous manager. It's the majority in the middle that suffer because they get caught up in the constant bickering no matter who is in charge.

But why are people so against a manager? Even though AVB got his fair share of stick, I truly believe it never got personal like it did with Redknapp and like it has already gotten with Sherwood. Yes people were skeptical about AVB from day one and some people never warmed to him but people raised concerns about the style of play and his tactics, not his background and the way he speaks. And it takes the ****ing biscuit people slam Sherwood for his lack of managerial experience when AVB only had a couple of years at Porto in a two team league and flopped big style at Chelsea a team with phenomal resources and despite a year and a half in charge at Spurs didn't ever seem like he had a clue of how to win a home game.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I said to my mates last night that I could not figure out who's decision it was to believe that Danny Rose was good enough to be our first-choice left back, and that the whole Daws situation is heartbreaking.

I watched Chiriches closely last night too. The amount of times he had the ball and kept it, trying to look for someone to pass to as opposed to lumping it forward, was almost countless. yes, he gets caught now and again, but I have great hope he can develop into a superb defender once the quality around him is greater. Right now, he is on the left on the partnership, leaving him dealing with Rose and whoever else we chuck out there in lieu of a proper left-footed midfielder/wide man (Sigurdsson was beyond pathetic last night, just terrible - I cannot even get into it any further!). But Vlad STILL tried to play. Daws is really heartbreaking. his spirit, his effort, his grit, his determination, all of that is unquestionable. But simply put, whatever legs he had are gone. He simply has to play deep or else he will get done. And against a side like City, he has next to no hope. Yet he is our club skipper and a MASSIVE presence, so with all the upheaval, it would be foolish to drop him until the summer when such decisions can be made with a full season ahead.

Vertonghen's injury has been an enormous blow for several reasons; my hope for the silver lining there was that we would get a left-back in, alas, we appear to not be bothered. I would've thrown a lot of money at Everton for Baines personally, but alas we did not. Thus we will likely be pressed into playing him there when he returns. Such a waste...

I agree with both those assessments. I think we both agreed it was crazy to let BAE go without another left back in situ. It is absolute madness to let this continue beyond tomorrow. Why isn't Baldini earning his living and finding us one? One that can defend and cross would be nice for a change!

Daws has been great, but it is with sadness that we need to acknowledge that a great warrior is finally past it.

I think Vlad could be good, but he needs the right partner.Daws certainly isnt it and I am not sure Verts is either. I think they may be too similar. We need a good, strong, fast centre back to partner either of them IMO.

Ade needs some competition up top too.

Shame we didn't address these issues in the window. Still one day to go, ever hopeful!

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree with both those assessments. I think we both agreed it was crazy to let BAE go without another left back in situ. It is absolute madness to let this continue beyond tomorrow. Why isn't Baldini earning his living and finding us one? One that can defend and cross would be nice for a change!

Daws has been great, but it is with sadness that we need to acknowledge that a great warrior is finally past it.

I think Vlad could be good, but he needs the right partner.Daws certainly isnt it and I am not sure Verts is either. I think they may be too similar. We need a good, strong, fast centre back to partner either of them IMO.

Ade needs some competition up top too.

Shame we didn't address these issues in the window. Still one day to go, ever hopeful!

This is one of the biggest sources of frustration for me. Ekotto is not a world beater but I just don't see what Rose has done to get himself ahead of him. Like you said, he can't defend and he's not even very good going forward either. A midtable club would be his level not a team aspiring to be in the top 4. I'm not even saying get Ekotto back and make him the no.1 but surely we can do better than Rose?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Scara and Gutterboy, I fully understand why you are skeptical when it comes to Sherwood and his lack of experience, I get it, I myself am still skeptical. But just why are you so determined to see him fail or give hime so little credit whenever we get a decent result? I'm beginning to wonder just how much you actually support the club given your treatemnt of some of the managers. I swear we could beat Bayern Munich at the Allianz and you would find a way to taint the achievement. We were getting pasted left, right and centre under AVB, one of those games was WEST ****ING HAM a team that haven't won at WHL since 1999 and are dog**** away from home and always have been. We lost to the very same team we lost last night but by a bigger scoreline in November despite playing Sandro.

We were scoring little and letting in goals for fun under the last manager, it's almost like you believe we sacked Fergie and replaced him with Steve Kean.

It's exactly a Steve Kean situation. Or a Di Matteo one. If he somehow manages to scrape through past May, he'll just be sacked in October and next season will be a write-off as well.

I also worry that he's taking the club back in the wrong direction - motivation and counter-attacking, instead of technical and possession. After we overhauled and bought AVB 15 players to play the latter, we're going to have to go through another big upheaval to return to the former. I just think the longer Timmeh is around the more damage he'll do. Instead we need someone (LVG/FDB) to pick up the project again and see it through to its conclusion (a title challenge).