Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

i know what you are saying, and i can appreciate that for an untested specimen in a pressure enviroment you want to be able to make a quick decision and not waste resources on a longer experiment but consider the boundaries we've suggested for Tim......Tim is given till end of the season before anyone can judge...yet AVB is supposed to be given three years

then there is the litmus test of playing the big boys. i COMPLETELY agree with you that these are the games that will determine if he is a good manager or not in the short term, and possibly an indication of what is possible in the long term? but in those games AVB lost or drew every single one of those and in two of them it was record breaking humiliating with no fight

i would hope that the criteria we instinctively set for a newbie would be revised some come the end of the season

Last season with a worse squad but one more accustomed to this league we beat United, Arsenal, City and Liverpool. The fact that with a better squad with more depth we have gotten hammered more suggests the players needed to settle into this league.

Tim gets judged on shorter term parameters because they are the parameters he set himself. To him, football is a simple game, there is no time for projects and you win games or you get sacked. The people that wanted AVB wanted him because he was supposed to build something for the long term.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Last season with a worse squad but one more accustomed to this league we beat United, Arsenal, City and Liverpool. The fact that with a better squad with more depth we have gotten hammered more suggests the players needed to settle into this league.

Tim gets judged on shorter term parameters because they are the parameters he set himself. To him, football is a simple game, there is no time for projects and you win games or you get sacked. The people that wanted AVB wanted him because he was supposed to build something for the long term.

Not everyone. There were plenty of people who supported AVB but thought that talk of projects was premature given the average tenure of a Premier League manager.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

i know what you are saying, and i can appreciate that for an untested specimen in a pressure enviroment you want to be able to make a quick decision and not waste resources on a longer experiment but consider the boundaries we've suggested for Tim......Tim is given till end of the season before anyone can judge...yet AVB is supposed to be given three years

then there is the litmus test of playing the big boys. i COMPLETELY agree with you that these are the games that will determine if he is a good manager or not in the short term, and possibly an indication of what is possible in the long term? but in those games AVB lost or drew every single one of those and in two of them it was record breaking humiliating with no fight

i would hope that the criteria we instinctively set for a newbie would be revised some come the end of the season

A bit unfair to judge AVB only on what happened this season, no?

I don't think anyone is ever given 3 years regardless of performances and results.

Last season with a worse squad but one more accustomed to this league we beat United, Arsenal, City and Liverpool. The fact that with a better squad with more depth we have gotten hammered more suggests the players needed to settle into this league.

Tim gets judged on shorter term parameters because they are the parameters he set himself. To him, football is a simple game, there is no time for projects and you win games or you get sacked. The people that wanted AVB wanted him because he was supposed to build something for the long term.

A worse squad, but probably a better team/starting 11 last season imo.

Sherwood didn't set those parameters I think, he just explicitly accepts that those are the parameters everyone has to live by. The reason Wenger got so much time at the scum is that he produced results. This is true for just about every managerial job at just about every club and not something Sherwood has set upon himself.

 

[Modric THFC]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Last season with a worse squad but one more accustomed to this league we beat United, Arsenal, City and Liverpool. The fact that with a better squad with more depth we have gotten hammered more suggests the players needed to settle into this league.

Tim gets judged on shorter term parameters because they are the parameters he set himself. To him, football is a simple game, there is no time for projects and you win games or you get sacked. The people that wanted AVB wanted him because he was supposed to build something for the long term.

The reality though is that youth team focused Sherwood is more likely to build something long term at the club.
AVB only seemed to stay on after a season because he wanted to prove a point. There was no way he would have remained here had he succeeded.

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Last season with a worse squad but one more accustomed to this league we beat United, Arsenal, City and Liverpool. The fact that with a better squad with more depth we have gotten hammered more suggests the players needed to settle into this league.

yeah i was confused with what he meant by that

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Last season with a worse squad but one more accustomed to this league we beat United, Arsenal, City and Liverpool. The fact that with a better squad with more depth we have gotten hammered more suggests the players needed to settle into this league.

Tim gets judged on shorter term parameters because they are the parameters he set himself. To him, football is a simple game, there is no time for projects and you win games or you get sacked. The people that wanted AVB wanted him because he was supposed to build something for the long term.

i dont agree with the bit in bold at all. not for the hammering aspect of it anway

the score line wasnt even the issue in those two defeats , it was the level of effort more than anything else and that we seemed to have given up

no one here is denying that people need to be accustomed to the league, but as a blanket excuse/ reason for nearly everything? surely the complete transformation in style , tempo, results and eforts nearly overnight ...joined in with what many people in the media (see how i chose to accept media info when it suits me) shows more that its the ethos and the manager himself thats responsible for a lot that went on on the pitch

people didnt say judge AVB over three years because of any project...they said first season is bedding in period..so dont judge....we bought a lot of peopel for the squad ...so even though most of the starting 11 where still here and playing as starters they said cant judge him in his entire second year even though top four was always the goal ...and he knew it was the goal....so on to his third year...and it will be at the end of this that he gets judged

so dissecting the implications of what you said...this means that he intentionally threw away points for the benefit of the long term project? which would translate as sabotaging potential results for the benefit of the long term goal

i will never know why levy did not back this guy as AVB was clearly moving at a slower pace in regards to on pitch development / instructions...so would inevitably take longer to get to the end goal..........ironically ..i have no idea what that end goal would be funny enough...i could only hazard a guess. i cant think of a team that played like how he set us out to play ijn conjunction with the starting 11 he picked

edit:- and time sherwood hasnt set himself anything....he just isnt naive to think that he can have years of tinkering, with results being the victim, in order to possibly get to a goal that wont manifest for another few years after he finishes tinkering. why would he set himself until the end of the season? especially with the same squad that people said needs till the end of next season? i could argue that point all day as being yet another case of unfairness that wouldnt be given to AVB. except by the chairman

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

A bit unfair to judge AVB only on what happened this season, no?

I don't think anyone is ever given 3 years regardless of performances and results.

i will agree with the bit in bold, i said as much after the destruction we got at city...that game was a freak result ...but i did say that now this has happened it would never happen again. it happened again and there was even less fight

its unfair to judge someone on the bad season when they have had the good season...but you know something...the way we played...? last season was the same ..the only difference was bale reached some heights that put him in the world class map. but the approach last season was the same to games...

bale being bale is not avb's fault..what person in his right mind doesnt use the tools he has? but it wasnt like we played better last year either....at least not by a significant margin...we won games for sure...but the aproach was the same .,.....a simple search in any avb thread would show that i said that in case someone otherwise thinks ulterior motives..(whatever that means)

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

i will agree with the bit in bold, i said as much after the destruction we got at city...that game was a freak result ...but i did say that now this has happened it would never happen again. it happened again and there was even less fight

its unfair to judge someone on the bad season when they have had the good season...but you know something...the way we played...? last season was the same ..the only difference was bale reached some heights that put him in the world class map. but the approach last season was the same to games...

bale being bale is not avb's fault..what person in his right mind doesnt use the tools he has? but it wasnt like we played better last year either....at least not by a significant margin...we won games for sure...but the aproach was the same .,.....a simple search in any avb thread would show that i said that in case someone otherwise thinks ulterior motives..(whatever that means)

I think we agree.

I just didn't agree with your description that AVB "lost or drew every single one of those" games as that seemed to exclude last season.

Back to Sherwood:

I think too much weight is put on individual games at times. I certainly won't get too downbeat even if we do end up losing to City as they're a fantastic side. I do hope we at least look well organized, motivated and that we put up a fight. If we can make it a close-ish game that can go either way Sherwood will have done well I think. Then the outcome will be what it will be.

Of course the press needs to tell their stories, put up some narrative, and it will probably be "Sherwood fails his first big test" if we end up losing, and it will be mainly nonsense.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

i dont agree with the bit in bold at all. not for the hammering aspect of it anway

the score line wasnt even the issue in those two defeats , it was the level of effort more than anything else and that we seemed to have given up

no one here is denying that people need to be accustomed to the league, but as a blanket excuse/ reason for nearly everything? surely the complete transformation in style , tempo, results and eforts nearly overnight ...joined in with what many people in the media (see how i chose to accept media info when it suits me) shows more that its the ethos and the manager himself thats responsible for a lot that went on on the pitch

people didnt say judge AVB over three years because of any project...they said first season is bedding in period..so dont judge....we bought a lot of peopel for the squad ...so even though most of the starting 11 where still here and playing as starters they said cant judge him in his entire second year even though top four was always the goal ...and he knew it was the goal....so on to his third year...and it will be at the end of this that he gets judged

so dissecting the implications of what you said...this means that he intentionally threw away points for the benefit of the long term project? which would translate as sabotaging potential results for the benefit of the long term goal

i will never know why levy did not back this guy as AVB was clearly moving at a slower pace in regards to on pitch development / instructions...so would inevitably take longer to get to the end goal..........ironically ..i have no idea what that end goal would be funny enough...i could only hazard a guess. i cant think of a team that played like how he set us out to play ijn conjunction with the starting 11 he picked

edit:- and time sherwood hasnt set himself anything....he just isnt naive to think that he can have years of tinkering, with results being the victim, in order to possibly get to a goal that wont manifest for another few years after he finishes tinkering. why would he set himself until the end of the season? especially with the same squad that people said needs till the end of next season? i could argue that point all day as being yet another case of unfairness that wouldnt be given to AVB. except by the chairman

In a word...yes.

If a team isn't settled and clicking together, everything will look wrong. Gaps will appear, mistakes will be made, passes will go astray. When they are settled and we click, we look cohesive.

Of course Sherwood is playing a quicker tempo and I'm really impressed with the work he has done, but AVB didn't want that tempo, hence why it's so easy to look transformed. Let's not pretend we've instantly turned into a great performing side though, West Ham, West Brom and Palace were poor performances under Tim despite the quicker tempo.

I don't think I've suggested AVB intentionally threw results.

And Sherwood has given himself those parameters. He has said the words himself. Obviously AVB will have accepted that there needs to be a balance between instant results and accepting something for the long term (personally I think we as a club demand too much in terms of instant results and should take the hit for a season if it means we establish what needs to be established) but Sherwood has taken this job on knowing that if he doesn't get 4th his job is on the line. He takes that on, on the basis that he thinks he can do it. Therefore, instant results are demanded.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The reality though is that youth team focused Sherwood is more likely to build something long term at the club.
AVB only seemed to stay on after a season because he wanted to prove a point. There was no way he would have remained here had he succeeded.

Maybe Sherwood will end up doing something long term. If he gets 4th this season it's quite likely that he will get the opportunity to do so, particularly as he will have proved there is a path to the first team for youth products and that will have impressed Levy.

But I think if AVB thought he was backed and respected enough in his position he would have stayed too. The noises from people in line with his camp said he thought 3rd was possible this year and a title push the season after.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

In a word...yes.

If a team isn't settled and clicking together, everything will look wrong. Gaps will appear, mistakes will be made, passes will go astray. When they are settled and we click, we look cohesive.

Of course Sherwood is playing a quicker tempo and I'm really impressed with the work he has done, but AVB didn't want that tempo, hence why it's so easy to look transformed. Let's not pretend we've instantly turned into a great performing side though, West Ham, West Brom and Palace were poor performances under Tim despite the quicker tempo.

I don't think I've suggested AVB intentionally threw results.

And Sherwood has given himself those parameters. He has said the words himself. Obviously AVB will have accepted that there needs to be a balance between instant results and accepting something for the long term (personally I think we as a club demand too much in terms of instant results and should take the hit for a season if it means we establish what needs to be established) but Sherwood has taken this job on knowing that if he doesn't get 4th his job is on the line. He takes that on, on the basis that he thinks he can do it. Therefore, instant results are demanded.

i'll try and keep my post small , i think points come across better and its less boring

west ham fist 60 -70 mins i thought we were actually good......but showed quite a bit of naivety,...but still good
west brom? Not so good but sort of either way...so basically i wouldnt say we were good in that game
palace was a tale of two halves...first half poor...second half good but again with some tactical naivety

my thing is that at least there is a ceiling of good , being better and ability to have something extra in the tank...something else to try and reach for. But in AVB it seemed like we were stuck on luke warm forever....in a state of "whatever" and when we pushed the tempo...we still lokked a bit stiff and rigid and we wouldnt looks 'good' this isnt to say that we didnt have good games this season under AVB cause we did..but we are consistently playing better over the last few games since sherwood took over

at least i think so, i wouldnt want to put words into your mouth...maybe you did prefer what AVB put out there...i personally didnt like what i was seeing on the pitch but accepted that it was a stage and something that was in progress.

let me ask you something, do you think we are playing better now and with more freedom ? or do you think that we are the same but different approaches?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

i'll try and keep my post small , i think points come across better and its less boring

west ham fist 60 -70 mins i thought we were actually good......but showed quite a bit of naivety,...but still good
west brom? Not so good but sort of either way...so basically i wouldnt say we were good in that game
palace was a tale of two halves...first half poor...second half good but again with some tactical naivety

my thing is that at least there is a ceiling of good , being better and ability to have something extra in the tank...something else to try and reach for. But in AVB it seemed like we were stuck on luke warm forever....in a state of "whatever" and when we pushed the tempo...we still lokked a bit stiff and rigid and we wouldnt looks 'good' this isnt to say that we didnt have good games this season under AVB cause we did..but we are consistently playing better over the last few games since sherwood took over

at least i think so, i wouldnt want to put words into your mouth...maybe you did prefer what AVB put out there...i personally didnt like what i was seeing on the pitch but accepted that it was a stage and something that was in progress.

let me ask you something, do you think we are playing better now and with more freedom ? or do you think that we are the same but different approaches?

I really like Sherwood's style. To prove this, I will let you in on the fact that I decided to play a season of FM14 with our squad and with his hilariously gung ho 4-2-4...it's April and I'm second, in with a shot of the title. No defensive midfielder, attacking inside forwards on the AM positions, absolutely ruin most teams.

In all seriousness, I do like it. I think it's easier to win the easier games if we play a quick tempo and go for short term results, but I've also been impressed with how Sherwood has gone about the Old Trafford game, the Southampton game and the Swansea game. Different approaches required for each but he has put the plan into effect and got results. It's good stuff. We are playing with more freedom for sure, but it doesn't always translate into being better. West Brom we had freedom but no real chances. Palace we had freedom and none of the ball and should have been 3 down before half time.

I think fans of British football are just accustomed to seeing a quick tempo game, and a slow tempo just is not appreciated, where as it is on the continent. I think there are lots of games where we created good chances under AVB but because they were in bursts in amoungst lots of slow tempo probing, it looks like we were never really dominant. Where as under Tim, we attack in wave after wave once we have gotten hold of the situation and it's much more pleasing for the typical British fan. Whether or not it translates to better results isn't clear, although Tim is on a bloody good start towards it. Whether or not it is suited to our club, after years of Bale and Lennon flying down the wings...yes, it probably is. And once the fans are kept happy, it's almost like half/quarter of the battle.

 

[Nigeyman]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I really like Sherwood's style. To prove this, I will let you in on the fact that I decided to play a season of FM14 with our squad and with his hilariously gung ho 4-2-4...it's April and I'm second, in with a shot of the title. No defensive midfielder, attacking inside forwards on the AM positions, absolutely ruin most teams.

In all seriousness, I do like it. I think it's easier to win the easier games if we play a quick tempo and go for short term results, but I've also been impressed with how Sherwood has gone about the Old Trafford game, the Southampton game and the Swansea game. Different approaches required for each but he has put the plan into effect and got results. It's good stuff. We are playing with more freedom for sure, but it doesn't always translate into being better. West Brom we had freedom but no real chances. Palace we had freedom and none of the ball and should have been 3 down before half time.

I think fans of British football are just accustomed to seeing a quick tempo game, and a slow tempo just is not appreciated, where as it is on the continent. I think there are lots of games where we created good chances under AVB but because they were in bursts in amoungst lots of slow tempo probing, it looks like we were never really dominant. Where as under Tim, we attack in wave after wave once we have gotten hold of the situation and it's much more pleasing for the typical British fan. Whether or not it translates to better results isn't clear, although Tim is on a bloody good start towards it. Whether or not it is suited to our club, after years of Bale and Lennon flying down the wings...yes, it probably is. And once the fans are kept happy, it's almost like half/quarter of the battle.

top post bol!

 

[Cochise]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It was interesting so see though that we did revert to a 4-1-4-1 at times when defending to really pressure their midfield. Early on Shelvey did still find pockets of space to operate in which later on we closed up, but it looked far more solid than the 4-4-2. I agree with some of the other posts here, maybe the 4-4-2 was used as a way of encouraging the players to leave a restrictive system and play to their strengths. The table for the last six games looks very encouraging and whilst people can point out the quality of the opposition, we can quite honestly say that we are playing with neither of our first choice defenders, midfielders or wide players (Verts, Kaboul, Paulinho, Sandro, Townsend and maybe even Lamela).

If TS keeps things progressing down this road then there is no reason why we can't push on for top four. Winning these games now is going to give our team a good psychological boost and it may even strike a bit more fear into teams who before felt they could camp out in their own half all game for a point. As I said, February is the time where we have to step up. Against the same teams we scraped 3 points from a possible 15 last season. IF Sherwood can improve on that and aim for 12+ (we should aim for 15/15) then we can start to talk him up.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Nice touch from Sherwood in the post-match press conference.
When the 5 away games thing was raised he said that he hasn't done five, Andre has to take half the credit too.

 

[Yermiyahu]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Nice touch from Sherwood in the post-match press conference.
When the 5 away games thing was raised he said that he hasn't done five, Andre has to take half the credit too.

It's a shame some on here can't be as magnanimous, with regard to Tim Sherwood.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It's a shame some on here can't be as magnanimous, with regard to Tim Sherwood.

Indeed.
Though I hope with time that events will win them around.

 

[THFC6061]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

No experience?

No coaching badges?

Oh well...

 

[Daisuk]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Can't believe Man United are almost in-form according to that table.

 

[Rorschach]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

No experience?

No coaching badges?

Oh well...

Funny how you can perceive things differently. Man Utd's form over that same period is better than the mighty Paddlepool and Everton. Who would have thunk it?