Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think Liverpool bypassed the midfield into the channels rather than cutting through, but that might be my failing memory again.

We are shutting down a little at the end of matches, but that's not quite the same as what I meant. We seem to go at it for most of the match and then close out the end. I don't think that's compatible with a high press style and think we need to be able to change the tempo throughout.

I don't believe I've said that Sherwood can't improve us or that he won't, more that there are managers out there with the experience and history that suggest they could/would.

And he still keeps saying stuff that makes me think he can't! It may be that he's just a dingdong, and if the results continue to be good then seeing as I don't believe in luck, it will be the only remaining option. I can live with that, but don't expect me to like him. But then he talks about wanting to employ Louise Redknapp's husband and that is not the action of a man with a fully functioning brain.

I think we're doing more than shutting down a little at the end of matches myself. We look closer to the ideal of changing tempo now than under AVB imo. At least now the high tempo play is there at times, under AVB we so often needed to up our tempo, movement, passing and failed. That's the difficult thing to achieve, Sherwood has moved us in the right direction here. Slowing down when appropriate is obviously important, he's mentioned controlling games by keeping possession many times in his interviews even and the way he put Bentaleb on against Southampton and United when a goal ahead shows that this is something he wants to keep developing.

You cannot seriously think that what he says to the British press is what he actually thinks or anywhere close to the limits of his actual knowledge?

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Braineclipse post regarding the Luka-Huddlestone partnership was fantastic btw.

 

[Nigeyman]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Braineclipse post regarding the Luka-Huddlestone partnership was fantastic btw.

+1,000,000

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

He might have just said that Bentaleb was a talent, but not ready. There are all kinds of ways of keeping Bentaleb to make himself look good.

Actually I explained the reason in another post (I think in the should AVB have been sacked thread).

We've all worked with people that keep knowledge/assets from others in order to improve their own appearance. I'd say it's incredibly unlikely that nothing like that happens at the club - it happens in every other workplace.

I realise that not all theories are equally valid, but I have a problem with believing any rumours coming out of the club when there's via reason to believe many of the leaks come from Sherwood himself. I know there are two representations of what happened on twitter, but I am firstly on the side of it being true.

The way for someone in charge of player development and the youth squad closest to the first team squad to make himself look good is to guide young talented players into the first team to where they start performing for the team on the pitch.

His job was essentially to get young players to the level where they could play for the first team. Him keeping players away from the first team in no way makes him look good, it makes him look incompetent.

-----

Edit: Cheers KD and nigey

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

i think maybe it's come at a very good time for us - after this run of good form i think that there's as little pressure on the outcome as there could have been, at this stage of the season anyhow. City are on fire and we could be forgiven for losing the game so hopefully that gives us a bit of freedom to go out there and do our thing

I think we need to win and I think we need to go for the title. I am absolutely serious. Aim high and see where it gets us. Personally, I think that approach will give us 4th over the dippers and junior dippers.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The way for someone in charge of player development and the youth squad closest to the first team squad to make himself look good is to guide young talented players into the first team to where they start performing for the team on the pitch.

His job was essentially to get young players to the level where they could play for the first team. Him keeping players away from the first team in no way makes him look good, it makes him look incompetent.

-----

Edit: Cheers KD and nigey

Also, if he was doing that, then it would almost certainly be known throughout the club. In those circumstances would he get a promotion when AVB had left the club, at least partly, for falling out with people behind the scenes?

 

[SUIYHA]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree about Ferdinand. He's the first striker I remember make the now typical "good striker joins Spurs, becomes sh1t" move.

The bits that he's taken apart are:

Core midfield. We didn't have teams run through the middle of us. Ever. Now it happens a few times every match. Had we been up against a team with their shooting boots on we'd have been on the end of a loss that AVB could only dream of.

Tempo. We don't have different tempos to match with where the game is anymore. We just have flat out followed by slow for the last 5 mins if we're winning.

Control of the game. Whilst our matches must be incredibly entertaining for the neutral now, the best description of our style I've seen is the "two drunks slugging it out in a pub car park" quote. People in England have been mistaking this for good football for a long time now, mainly due to Sky telling us that all the time.

Timmeh 's got us scoring again, and that's great. But the real trick is to score without breaking the above, not something easily done.

Err....

[video=youtube;v38r6W-0g8Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38r6W-0g8Y[/video]

Even though I agree that it does happen more often now, that's hardly surprising as we've now introduced more playmakers instead of big tough tacklers into the centre of the field. We're a little more open but we create a lot more chances too, and I think we'll get even stronger defensively when Sandro is back.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

A question Scara:

You were one of those (including myself) arguing that the Modric - Huddlestone central midfield partnership was outstanding. You were the one saying that we didn't need a Parker type player and we would be better of with more passers in the team to help us control games.

Yet, AVB didn't sign or play any player that could be seen as a proper playmaker in the centre of the pitch. Not one. I thought it was harsh to describe his system as one with "two defensive midfielders", but it certainly wasn't anything close to the Modric - Huddlestone partnership in terms of ability on the ball, movement, passing tempo, pure outrageous ****ing skill or anything. Not even one of the players regularly used by AVB matched either of Hudd and Modric in these vital skills.

Sherwood comes in and he has the balls to introduce a 19 year old into the team to get us passing with more tempo, accuracy and purpose. A move clearly in the direction yourself, like me, argued for back in the day of the Modric - Huddlestone vs Parker debates. Yes, occasionally with Huddlestone someone is going to run straight through the middle with pace and Hudd would struggle to keep up, yes with a 19 year old Bentaleb in the team there's going to be space to be exploited in the middle at times. But at least we're passing, at least there are chances, purpose and plan to our attacking play. We have a deep playmaker again, someone with the guts to trust his touch in a tight spot, create the space and relase the ball to a well placed team mate instead of giving it back to the goalie to punt upfield.

What gives? Why doesn't this please you?

The Hudd/Modric balance worked without a DM for the following reasons (all IMO obviously):

Hudd's reading of the game. The only player in our squad who reads a game defensively as well as Hudd is Sandro. The only two who read it as well in an attacking sense are Eriksen and Bentaleb. None of them can play both the defensive and offensive roles Hudd covered.

Modric's ability in tight space in the final 3rd. Nobody has that in our team and I think that was vital to supporting the attack. On second thoughts, Eriksen has a bit of that but not enough to make up for what I think Paulinho can do.

Modric 's pressing. That lad pressed and pressed and pressed, all over the pitch, all the time. Not just effort though, intelligent in closing the channels first. And he had an underrated tackle on him. That's required if you don't have a proper DM I think.

If Bentaleb matures into the experienced player we all seem to think he could, then he could play that Hudd role well. I don't know if any of our players will ever play the Modric role though.

 

[SUIYHA]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

A question Scara:

You were one of those (including myself) arguing that the Modric - Huddlestone central midfield partnership was outstanding. You were the one saying that we didn't need a Parker type player and we would be better of with more passers in the team to help us control games.

Yet, AVB didn't sign or play any player that could be seen as a proper playmaker in the centre of the pitch. Not one. I thought it was harsh to describe his system as one with "two defensive midfielders", but it certainly wasn't anything close to the Modric - Huddlestone partnership in terms of ability on the ball, movement, passing tempo, pure outrageous ****ing skill or anything. Not even one of the players regularly used by AVB matched either of Hudd and Modric in these vital skills.

Sherwood comes in and he has the balls to introduce a 19 year old into the team to get us passing with more tempo, accuracy and purpose. A move clearly in the direction yourself, like me, argued for back in the day of the Modric - Huddlestone vs Parker debates. Yes, occasionally with Huddlestone someone is going to run straight through the middle with pace and Hudd would struggle to keep up, yes with a 19 year old Bentaleb in the team there's going to be space to be exploited in the middle at times. But at least we're passing, at least there are chances, purpose and plan to our attacking play. We have a deep playmaker again, someone with the guts to trust his touch in a tight spot, create the space and relase the ball to a well placed team mate instead of giving it back to the goalie to punt upfield.

What gives? Why doesn't this please you?

Well said.

Having good passers playing in a deep defensive line means that if the opposition come and attack us, we can pick them off on the counter. Having a load of defensive midfielders playing a high line means the opposition gets forced back into their own half and our poor passers can't break them down.

Also important to remember that if we've got the ball, the opposition can't score. Modric and Carrick weren't defensive midfielders like your traditional "destroyers" like Wilson Palacios or Michael Brown that they played alongside, but they worked wonders for our defensive records when they came into the team because they helped us maintain possession, manoeuvre the ball in congested areas and also ensure that we get our attacking players on the ball. If you lose the ball near the opposition's goal, it requires something special from the opposition to create a chance from it, but if you lose it in the centre of the pitch or near your own goal, you put yourself massively at risk.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Also, if he was doing that, then it would almost certainly be known throughout the club. In those circumstances would he get a promotion when AVB had left the club, at least partly, for falling out with people behind the scenes?

Solid point, I don't think so.

The Hudd/Modric balance worked without a DM for the following reasons (all IMO obviously):

Hudd's reading of the game. The only player in our squad who reads a game defensively as well as Hudd is Sandro. The only two who read it as well in an attacking sense are Eriksen and Bentaleb. None of them can play both the defensive and offensive roles Hudd covered.

Modric's ability in tight space in the final 3rd. Nobody has that in our team and I think that was vital to supporting the attack. On second thoughts, Eriksen has a bit of that but not enough to make up for what I think Paulinho can do.

Modric 's pressing. That lad pressed and pressed and pressed, all over the pitch, all the time. Not just effort though, intelligent in closing the channels first. And he had an underrated tackle on him. That's required if you don't have a proper DM I think.

If Bentaleb matures into the experienced player we all seem to think he could, then he could play that Hudd role well. I don't know if any of our players will ever play the Modric role though.

But that was the Hudd - Modric midfield, it was special and required a lot. But it isn't what Sherwood is doing and it seems to me almost opposite to what AVB was doing.

I suppose you could say Bentaleb in the Hudd role and Dembele in the Modric role is somewhat close to a similar line-up. And yes, Bentaleb is still lacking defensively, although his added mobility and pace makes him less dependent on positioning compared to Hudd. Modric was brilliant and his work rate was top notch, he really was a lot better defensively than he generally got credit for. It was key to making that partnership with Hudd work. But I think many of the same things are true about Dembele, he does a lot of things really well defensively and is (like Modric) very dependable in that he will always get back right side of the ball.

My point was more on in style and choice of players. We both enjoyed the Modric - Huddlestone partnership because it was a choice of skill, technical ability, passing etc over athleticism and defensive ability. It was the choice where we "managed" defensively while excelling on the ball. It was in many ways the opposite of the Parker* approach you disliked so strongly. Introducing Bentaleb, along with reintroducing Adebayor and playing Eriksen as part of a midfield 4 with more attacking than defensive qualities seems to me like a shift in emphasis and it's a shift in the direction I like. A shift more towards the Modric - Huddlestone side of the spectrum and away from the Parker* end of the spectrum.

I just don't get why you don't like and appreciate this shift.

*Pretty please, for the love of ghod I'm not trying to restart "the great Parker debate of '11". If you disagree about these descriptions just leave it, or bump an old Parker thread if you feel the need to redo that old classic. I'm using this example because I know what Scara thinks about this issue and there's common ground there between us that I think is helpful as the basis for further discussion.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The way for someone in charge of player development and the youth squad closest to the first team squad to make himself look good is to guide young talented players into the first team to where they start performing for the team on the pitch.

His job was essentially to get young players to the level where they could play for the first team. Him keeping players away from the first team in no way makes him look good, it makes him look incompetent.

-----

Edit: Cheers KD and nigey

If he though he'd be getting the job himself soon (and it's clearly been an ambition for some time) then it would work in his favour.

 

[DHSF]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Im presuming TS also kept the dossier to playing half decent football a secret and hidden away in a locked draw.

 

[Bullet]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

He might have just said that Bentaleb was a talent, but not ready. There are all kinds of ways of keeping Bentaleb to make himself look good.

Your hatred of Sherwood due to his lower class dialect is almost as preposterous as Gutterboy's hatred of Sherwood's nationality.

In fact... perhaps you are Gutterboy; you've been authoring his posts all along to make yours look more plausible... that is the level of conspiracy theory we're working with now, yeah?!

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If he though he'd be getting the job himself soon (and it's clearly been an ambition for some time) then it would work in his favour.

Perhaps if he thought Bentaleb was so mind-numbingly awesome that he could change AVB's fortunes almost single handedly. This may or may not be true. I'm leaning towards Bentaleb being "the third Carrick" myself (Modric having been the second).

If this is true though it should be obvious to enough people at the club just how mind-numbingly awesome Bentaleb is and AVB shouldn't have needed the encouragement from Sherwood to play him. At least as a sub. In the Europe League. Once. Perhaps.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree about Ferdinand. He's the first striker I remember make the now typical "good striker joins Spurs, becomes sh1t" move.

The bits that he's taken apart are:

Core midfield. We didn't have teams run through the middle of us. Ever. Now it happens a few times every match. Had we been up against a team with their shooting boots on we'd have been on the end of a loss that AVB could only dream of.

Tempo. We don't have different tempos to match with where the game is anymore. We just have flat out followed by slow for the last 5 mins if we're winning.

Control of the game. Whilst our matches must be incredibly entertaining for the neutral now, the best description of our style I've seen is the "two drunks slugging it out in a pub car park" quote. People in England have been mistaking this for good football for a long time now, mainly due to Sky telling us that all the time.

Timmeh 's got us scoring again, and that's great. But the real trick is to score without breaking the above, not something easily done.

Let's be honest, West Ham and Liverpool waltzed through us! But I see your point general re: midfield, but there are signs he's calibrating a balance PLUS he has been denied Paulinho and Sandro for virtually his entire tenure. I think his adjustment/re-affirmation to Bentaleb of what Bentaleb's role was, proved very promising. Of course, while he has to play Daws and Chiriches without a Sandro in front of them, and whilst he persists with a truly poor left-back, we will ship a few more softies before the season's out. BTW, today affirmed even more for me that Daws is a real problem. When he goes lunging in at midfield and misses, he cannot recover in any way, shape or form.

Tempo…yes, to an extent, though again I thought today there were strong signs we were getting back to controling the tempo more.

Our control of the game has certainly been not and cold. I agree there have been times when we have looked shocking, and City at home will be a true test for this latest side, but I think you have to give him credit for at least being very committed to what he's trying to do, which is certainly be more open and attack-committed than AVB. I think Sherwood goes with the ethos of attack and sacrificing a certain level of that control, which if you go 2 or 3 up as we did today should ensure that you end up controlling a game by default.

I think you can only judge Sherwood when he has a fully fit squad and after a decent amount of time in the job. Thus far he has done superbly well. He is also the first manager in years (of course) to do this without Modric, Bale, King, VdV, Verts, Sandro and Paulinho. Obviously the first 4 of that list are not an option, but they are an option our last two managers enjoyed in either entirety or at least one of them. I think it's hard to knock him right now Scara…just my opinion.

 

[Lilywhite]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm starting to warm to him a bit more with every win (naturally), as a manager (not as a man, still not too fond of his interviews and general demeanour but acknowledge he's done a terrific job so far).

At the end of the day 5 wins and 1 draw is a great return following a 0-5 hammering. It's testament to Tim and the players. Not getting completely carried away cos I think we've been fairly fortunate with regards to when we've played certain sides (Southampton were down to their bare bones, WBA rested a few regulars, Stoke had some boys suspended, Man Utd were without van Persie and today Swansea had about 10 players out!). So I will continue to be quietly optimistic for now rather than proclaim we're absolutely nailed on for 4th spot like some seem to reckon. But at the end of the day, regardless of those team's problems we have still got the job done and that's all you can do.

Buzzing for City at home. We owe those ****s. If Sherwood can get one over them then he'll get a bucket of praise and rightly so.

 

[Nigeyman]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Im presuming TS also kept the dossier to playing half decent football a secret and hidden away in a locked draw.

:lol:

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Your hatred of Sherwood due to his lower class dialect is almost as preposterous as Gutterboy's hatred of Sherwood's nationality.

In fact... perhaps you are Gutterboy; you've been authoring his posts all along to make yours look more plausible... that is the level of conspiracy theory we're working with now, yeah?!

This is actually believable.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

btw Saudi Sportswashing Machine also walked through our centre and should have been 2 up during the first 25 minutes. Chelski second half have obliterated our centre time and time again. I think it's a case of re-writing history.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If he though he'd be getting the job himself soon (and it's clearly been an ambition for some time) then it would work in his favour.

I can't vouch for it's reliability or even remember where it came from but a rumour when AVB was still with us was that he and Sherwood fell out over AVB's refusal to use the kids in Europe or on the bench. Could be BS of course.