Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[diego_maradona]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I really hope it isn't his decision unless Levy genuinely sees him as the main man. In which case support him and do what needs to be done. Still goes back to what a complete joke this summer spree was. At least we won't probably lose much on the fees we shelled out but it would have done some damage to our reputation for sure.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If it were easy to fix why didnt AVB fix them? And he did have time to fix them - either it was him resisting to change (stubborn) or they arent actually easy to fix because those tactics employed were so rigid.

He doesnt seem to be eager to be anti AVB. Can some of you not appreciate (or fathom) that Tim has his way of playing, and as Steff says and I have said in the past, Tim had to radically make things simpler and then over time start implementing those changes to make us a bit more solid. Its about getting things back to the basics that the players understand hopefully playing to their potential and abilities thus improving confidence. It seems to be working.

Exactly. I 100% agree with this post.

And with the Pro's that Raziel mentioned;

- AVB (Pro's) was we kept possession well, center of team was very strong, we kept possession high on pitch, generally difficult to beat (bar the implosions, which we can argue separately as to the why)

We didn't, we kept possession between the half way line and the opposition's 18 yard box. Passed the ball around until we got to the 18 yard box, passed it across the pitch inf ront of them, then passed it back to the halfway line again. Which completely negated our major attributes (i.e pace) because it left no space in behind the opposition for us to exploit.

I would also argue that the centre of any team will look strong with Sandro in there (something TS hasn't benefited from yet).

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't think your analogy is accurate.

A more accurate analogy would be if I employed someone who wanted to make some major changes, that would make things worse in the short term but far better in the long term.

What I would do is give him the time required to make those changes - I made that appointment, I should have the balls to hold steady until he's had the time do complete the work. If it then isn't working them I'd have to hold up my hands and say it was a mistake.

One thing I absolutely wouldn't do is sack the financial controller and replace him with the sales manager who keeps telling me that the FC is **** at his job and he could do it much better.

But surely you have to put timescales on appointments? You can't just stick with a failing employee after 18 months and say he deserves "as long as it takes". You refused to ever set targets for AVB, so in other words we could have finished 7th for 3 seasons running and you still wouldn't have said one way or another if he was the right man for the job, or you simply refused to accept that you may be have been wrong.

It's a good strategy to plan for the long term, but you have to agree targets for managers in the short term, seriously, where would you have drawn the line? Would 10th have been acceptable this season under AVB?

Sometimes you don't need the length of a contract to see that certain employees are not right/fit for the job.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But many had issues with our playing style under AVB because it did look like we kept possesion for the sake of it......passing round the back.....slow....ponderous.

We have all been guilty of being seduced by possesion....perhaps all of us have been infected and indoctrinated into the Idea that Barcelona's style is the only way! or the only thing to aspire to.

The truth is a possesion based game is most effective when you have a 2 goal lead.....something we had once against Norwich this season under AVB....perhaps we have been getting similar possesion stats under sherwood because in two games in the league Stoke & Palace we have been able to pass it with the opponents 2 goals or more down and demoralised.

Whatever your thoughts on continental football - slow possesion game does not work in England particulary at 0-0......The most succesful teams in england transition defence into attack in the blink of an eye, and that doesnt mean long lofted passing all of the time.

It is clear that we look a more dangerous side under Sherwood (at present) than we did under AVB....for all AVB's intelligence he never could quite comprehend the English game.

By the way I love watching Barca and admire the tiki taka.....but love the faster pace & excitment of our league more.

Exacltly. We don't play on the continent (except in the Europa), we play in England but AVB just didn't know how to adapt to English football.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Not sure what Scara's answers would be, but the way that I look at it as I have a similar concern.

- AVB (Pro's) was we kept possession well, center of team was very strong, we kept possession high on pitch, generally difficult to beat (bar the implosions, which we can argue separately as to the why)
- AVB (cons) was team was often too slow with moving the ball, ran out of ideas in final third and didn't commit enough to attack, high line could be exposed

The easy fix to me would have been

- Work on changing the tempo of passing, players making quicker/earlier runs, especially in final 3rd
- commit midfielders to attacks (get into box)
- Work with defense to minimize exposure (covering DM?)

TS seems to be so eager to be anti-AVB that we aren't really taking advantage of the good stuff AVB did, the main one likely to bite us in the ass is the strength and possession through the middle. when AVB's side played well it was very difficult to go through our middle, something great to see after years of Spurs teams "soft in center" and to be fair it was something Redknapp started with Wilson -> Parker -> Sandro, AVB just took it further.

Strong in the centre but at the expense of us having almost zero creativity.

The possession was not that much of a positive as we rarely did anything with it. Stoke went to the Emirates in August, had more possession than Arsenal but lost 3-1.

The thing is, you say the problems we had were easy fixes, but the point is that is exactly how he wanted us to set out to play. If he wanted us to be more positive and play at a higher tempo than he would have done it from day 1. Look at how different Everton and Stoke play, from the first day of the season you could notice the difference. I don't buy the notion that he eventually would have let our players remove their shackles and start playing free flowing attacking football of out nowhere.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But surely you have to put timescales on appointments? You can't just stick with a failing employee after 18 months and say he deserves "as long as it takes". You refused to ever set targets for AVB, so in other words we could have finished 7th for 3 seasons running and you still wouldn't have said one way or another if he was the right man for the job, or you simply refused to accept that you may be have been wrong.

It's a good strategy to plan for the long term, but you have to agree targets for managers in the short term, seriously, where would you have drawn the line? Would 10th have been acceptable this season under AVB?

Sometimes you don't need the length of a contract to see that certain employees are not right/fit for the job.

He wasn't failing for 18 months.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Exactly. I 100% agree with this post.

And with the Pro's that Raziel mentioned;

- AVB (Pro's) was we kept possession well, center of team was very strong, we kept possession high on pitch, generally difficult to beat (bar the implosions, which we can argue separately as to the why)

We didn't, we kept possession between the half way line and the opposition's 18 yard box. Passed the ball around until we got to the 18 yard box, passed it across the pitch inf ront of them, then passed it back to the halfway line again. Which completely negated our major attributes (i.e pace) because it left no space in behind the opposition for us to exploit.

I would also argue that the centre of any team will look strong with Sandro in there (something TS hasn't benefited from yet).

Which teams keeps possession in the oppositions 18 yard box?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Exacltly. We don't play on the continent (except in the Europa), we play in England but AVB just didn't know how to adapt to English football.

Record points total suggests at the very least he adapted - whether or not you want to argue it was a diminished achievement because of Bale or not he certainly didn't fail to adapt.

 

[Rossi22]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

There is a multi-quote button you know 8-[

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

edit

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Strong in the centre but at the expense of us having almost zero creativity.

The possession was not that much of a positive as we rarely did anything with it. Stoke went to the Emirates in August, had more possession than Arsenal but lost 3-1.

The thing is, you say the problems we had were easy fixes, but the point is that is exactly how he wanted us to set out to play. If he wanted us to be more positive and play at a higher tempo than he would have done it from day 1. Look at how different Everton and Stoke play, from the first day of the season you could notice the difference. I don't buy the notion that he eventually would have let our players remove their shackles and start playing free flowing attacking football of out nowhere.

I don't think our players would have suddenly played high tempo. I do think our players would have gotten better at upping the tempo when required, as it's quite a demanding aspect of what AVB wanted. Some games we did it really well, others we found it difficult to do.

Again I think it comes down to a cultural thing in that the majority of English fans just don't like a slow tempo game. Swansea fans liked it because it was their USP - it helped them overachieve. For everyone else, it's seen as needless. But the idea that we had zero creativity is simply over played to a massive extent on here, the narrative is forming but it simply isn't the case. It simply came in between periods of slow possession which would create the impression to our crowds that the game was boring and we weren't doing well, where as on the continent it would be more appreciated. And by a similar turn we can play rubbish under Sherwood but our crowd will like the football because it was an attempt to play high tempo despite a lack of chances created.

AVB still would have played the same way but as our players got more accustomed to the league they would have gotten better at it, which would have made the football look nicer, because it would be more effective. Mourinho is taking the idea of a slower tempo and rapid bursts into his Chelsea team at the moment. Plenty of Chelsea fans I have spoken to have whispered that they have been rubbish on more than one occasion, but I think they will push City close because they are playing a smart game.

Anyway, this is nothing against Sherwood's style. I hope that his style gets us to where we want to be, I really do.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

He wasn't failing for 18 months.

Not in terms of league position but it became clear this season that we relied largely on one player last season, the only difference I noticed was Bale would score a screamer, the performances were nearly identical to this season.

The point of the post was that Scara refused to ever put a timescale on AVB, so essentially he could see out his contract and potentially be awarded another one because he would use vague terms like "as long as it takes." What does that mean? 15 years from now?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

There is a multi-quote button you know 8-[

Ahh sorry mate, it's tough on the phone!

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Record points total suggests at the very least he adapted - whether or not you want to argue it was a diminished achievement because of Bale or not he certainly didn't fail to adapt.

This season I believe he was too stubborn. Again, the only real difference was last season we had a world class player to paper over the cracks. Redknapp only suceeded because of the players according to some, but AVB gets the credit for "getting the best out of Bale", you can't have it both ways.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Not in terms of league position but it became clear this season that we relied largely on one player last season, the only difference I noticed was Bale would score a screamer, the performances were nearly identical to this season.

The point of the post was that Scara refused to ever put a timescale on AVB, so essentially he could see out his contract and potentially be awarded another one because he would use vague terms like "as long as it takes." What does that mean? 15 years from now?

I went through our games last season and actually the ones they fulfill the 'played rubbish but saved by Bale' criteria were actually very few. Never got much of a response to that post but there we go. There were games Bale got the winner sure, but a lot of those games it wasn't undeserved from our perspective and it doesn't count less just like it doesn't mean less for Arsenal when RVP dragged them ahead of us in 11/12.

I agree that if he is failing then he needs to go, and AVB wanted to go anyway so the point here is moot. I do see what Scara is saying though. Let's say in 15 years we were set up to challenge for the title on a consistent basis and live beyond our means for the next 20 years, after some Wenger-esque establishment of a higher average level, a new stadium etc etc. Would you take a few 6th place finishes, the occassional 4th, the occasional 7th, mostly 5ths, in order to get there? I probably would.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't think our players would have suddenly played high tempo. I do think our players would have gotten better at upping the tempo when required, as it's quite a demanding aspect of what AVB wanted. Some games we did it really well, others we found it difficult to do.

Again I think it comes down to a cultural thing in that the majority of English fans just don't like a slow tempo game. Swansea fans liked it because it was their USP - it helped them overachieve. For everyone else, it's seen as needless. But the idea that we had zero creativity is simply over played to a massive extent on here, the narrative is forming but it simply isn't the case. It simply came in between periods of slow possession which would create the impression to our crowds that the game was boring and we weren't doing well, where as on the continent it would be more appreciated. And by a similar turn we can play rubbish under Sherwood but our crowd will like the football because it was an attempt to play high tempo despite a lack of chances created.

AVB still would have played the same way but as our players got more accustomed to the league they would have gotten better at it, which would have made the football look nicer, because it would be more effective. Mourinho is taking the idea of a slower tempo and rapid bursts into his Chelsea team at the moment. Plenty of Chelsea fans I have spoken to have whispered that they have been rubbish on more than one occasion, but I think they will push City close because they are playing a smart game.

Anyway, this is nothing against Sherwood's style. I hope that his style gets us to where we want to be, I really do.

Sorry mate but it was the same thing at Chelsea i.e. slow, ponderous buildup play with little chances created, suicidal high line at the back at times.

The football has definitely improved under Sherwood. We create more chances and get more players into the box, it's not as good as the football we saw under HR but it's a step in the right direction. Why did we sign so many attacking players if only to eek out 1-0 wins?

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Which teams keeps possession in the oppositions 18 yard box?

That is (fairly obviously) not my point. We won the ball high up the pitch, but inevitably ended up back at the half way line again without even threatening their goal. So overall we probably kept possession on the halfway line as much as 'high up the pitch' passing the ball side to side in front of their back 4.

It goes back to the what's the point in keeping possession when we done absolutely nothing with it argument. But at this point I think that's been done to death.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I went through our games last season and actually the ones they fulfill the 'played rubbish but saved by Bale' criteria were actually very few. Never got much of a response to that post but there we go. There were games Bale got the winner sure, but a lot of those games it wasn't undeserved from our perspective and it doesn't count less just like it doesn't mean less for Arsenal when RVP dragged them ahead of us in 11/12.

I agree that if he is failing then he needs to go, and AVB wanted to go anyway so the point here is moot. I do see what Scara is saying though. Let's say in 15 years we were set up to challenge for the title on a consistent basis and live beyond our means for the next 20 years, after some Wenger-esque establishment of a higher average level, a new stadium etc etc. Would you take a few 6th place finishes, the occassional 4th, the occasional 7th, mostly 5ths, in order to get there? I probably would.

I wouldn't take five consecutive 8th places finishes for example like I'm sure Scara would have under AVB.

Of course there were games where we deserved to win, but in the second half of the season especially, Bale was the only one who looked like he was capable of scoring and was ultimately the difference.

 

[ALtottenham_hotspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

This season I believe he was too stubborn. Again, the only real difference was last season we had a world class player to paper over the cracks. Redknapp only suceeded because of the players according to some, but AVB gets the credit for "getting the best out of Bale", you can't have it both ways.

Agree with this, I think for the first half of last season AVB kept Spurs ticking along as the same under Harry. I think we then moved towards his ideas in the second half of the season, thankfully at the time we had Bale who could create something out of nothing.

You also only have to read some of the quotes from players now, how since Tim has taken over they are now aloud to express themselves they can move within the system. Im positive it was Soldado who said this very recently.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Agree with this, I think for the first half of last season AVB kept Spurs ticking along as the same under Harry. I think we then moved towards his ideas in the second half of the season, thankfully at the time we had Bale who could create something out of nothing.

You also only have to read some of the quotes from players now, how since Tim has taken over they are now aloud to express themselves they can move within the system. Im positive it was Soldado who said this very recently.

I don't doubt that last point, only when freedom becomes a burden and results drop with that approach the players will be privately claiming there's not enough structure, and then when they get that structure eventually they will say they can't express themselves, and the cycle of Tottenham's perpetual underachievement continues ever more because we don't have the balls to stick with something.

Nice article in the Standard tonight, basically saying behind the scenes Man United are aware of the possibility that they may not finish top 4 this season but that they are comfortable they will come back next time if they don't. Moyes is their man and they back him, and like the fact he takes the time to get to know players and favours a long term approach. Could anyone imagine Levy ever being like that? Not in a million years.

I hope Sherwood gets is to where we need to be, my annoyance about AVB going is that we go from deciding he is the man to deciding he isn't without giving him the backing long term. If we were going to treat him as easily expendable, we may as well not have hired him. Should have got Blanc, or someone else that chases instant results. Should have kept Harry.