Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Nigeyman]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

No team keeps possession just for the sake of it, and I know you're too intelligent to really believe that anyone here thinks or suggests they do.

The whole point of possession is to control the pace of the game, where on the pitch it's played, to avoid running around like headless chickens for 90 minutes, etc.

So yes, the manner of the possession does matter a lot. If all of your possession periods are 10 seconds long and the opponent's possession periods are all 5 seconds long, the stats will look amazing. That doesn't mean you've been in control of the game at all though.

And no, stats don't lie, but people misuse and misunderstand them all the time.

But many had issues with our playing style under AVB because it did look like we kept possesion for the sake of it......passing round the back.....slow....ponderous.

We have all been guilty of being seduced by possesion....perhaps all of us have been infected and indoctrinated into the Idea that Barcelona's style is the only way! or the only thing to aspire to.

The truth is a possesion based game is most effective when you have a 2 goal lead.....something we had once against Norwich this season under AVB....perhaps we have been getting similar possesion stats under sherwood because in two games in the league Stoke & Palace we have been able to pass it with the opponents 2 goals or more down and demoralised.

Whatever your thoughts on continental football - slow possesion game does not work in England particulary at 0-0......The most succesful teams in england transition defence into attack in the blink of an eye, and that doesnt mean long lofted passing all of the time.

It is clear that we look a more dangerous side under Sherwood (at present) than we did under AVB....for all AVB's intelligence he never could quite comprehend the English game.

By the way I love watching Barca and admire the tiki taka.....but love the faster pace & excitment of our league more.

 

[Nigeyman]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't think your analogy is accurate.

One thing I absolutely wouldn't do is sack the financial controller and replace him with the sales manager who keeps telling me that the FC is **** at his job and he could do it much better.

And you analogy is based on a tweet from Richard Keys!!!

lets all face facts....none of us know EVERYTHING that went on.....we can all talk about time but its more than likely that AVB through his behaviour after our defeat to pool made his position untenable.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think we did for a small amount of time at the end of a match, against a very tired, almost certain to be relegated team. It's encouraging that Timmeh saw that we needed to slow down, it's not so encouraging that it took so long for him to notice.

To give him the benefit of the doubt he hasn't had a lot of time on the training pitch to work with the team since he took over because of the packed Christmas schedule. It will be interesting to see how the style of play develops over the next few weeks.

 

[DHSF]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

To give him the benefit of the doubt he hasn't had a lot of time on the training pitch to work with the team since he took over because of the packed Christmas schedule. It will be interesting to see how the style of play develops over the next few weeks.

I agree and have been saying it for ages. The problem is the same people that wanted to give AVB time do not want to give time to Timmy... which smack of hypocrisy if you ask me. What is encouraging them not to give Timmy time is this preconceived and massive assumption that he isnt right for the long term and we are short termism in our approach.

I think having Timmy is actually a long term view - the fact of the matter is he knows the youngsters as well as anyone and we have seen evidence of their introduction so he is clearly showing that he is building for the long term - far beyond the 18 months he has been given. Unlike other Managers and coaches who just want to buy buy buy - he is clearly happy with what he has and has plans to introduce the youth in slowly - which is what some of us wanted in the first place. Its not even for the sake of it, Bentaleb looks like a half decent player for example.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It's funny how now we're getting into specifics about what "possession" really is.

Whilst the previous manager was in charge there was no such thing done. The possession stats were posted and the manager was 'bigged up' for such impressive stats. Fast forward to Sherwood and we now analyse:

1) the opposition
2) the possession being short periods or long.
3) if we're controlling the game or not

It is rather funny...but stats don't lie right? we've improved our possession count playing 4-4-2 :ross:

The 'run around a bit' manager has beaten the possession based football genius mastermind, the irony :ross:

I agree. Funny that some people will try and use any form of skewed stat to try and "prove" their ever weakening case.

Oh the sweet irony!

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

To give him the benefit of the doubt he hasn't had a lot of time on the training pitch to work with the team since he took over because of the packed Christmas schedule. It will be interesting to see how the style of play develops over the next few weeks.

I agree with this. Lets see and reserve judgement on TS until at the very least all our players are fit and available to him.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I just think it's extraordinary that Sherwood's getting picked apart right now. He's been here 5 minutes! He hasn't had even close to a fully fit squad, he's made some brave decisions (Bentaleb is a brave one and a good one for me) and he's not afraid to do what he feels is right. It isn't always what I'd do, but he's the manager (not me) and thus far, he's largely been proven correct (12 points from 15)…I was sad AVB didn't work out, I was sadder to find out he had given up too, but there we go, that's life. We can pick apart the wisdom/non-wisdom, but the facts are that Sherwood is our manager and he's doing a pretty decent job all-told. Is he the long-term answer? Who could possibly know at this stage? Have there been downs? Absolutely. But generally speaking, he has thus far got far more right IMO than he's got wrong, not the least of which was getting the players back on footing with a style they seem comfortable with (which is smart, first, short-term, do what needs to be done to steady the ship, roll with it for a while and THEN consider 'the next' style/move). He deserves our support.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

To give him the benefit of the doubt he hasn't had a lot of time on the training pitch to work with the team since he took over because of the packed Christmas schedule. It will be interesting to see how the style of play develops over the next few weeks.

With some aspects I agree, but he seems to have undone a lot of the good work we'd already done.

If time is his limiting resource, undoing what is already good is not a clever way to start.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

With some aspects I agree, but he seems to have undone a lot of the good work we'd already done.

If time is his limiting resource, undoing what is already good is not a clever way to start.

Interested to know what he's undone in your view? In terms of style of play or in terms of structure and set-up of the club's playing staff/training methods across the boards? One thing I would say is that Les Ferdinand is not who i want coaching my strikers!!!!!

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I just think it's extraordinary that Sherwood's getting picked apart right now. He's been here 5 minutes! He hasn't had even close to a fully fit squad, he's made some brave decisions (Bentaleb is a brave one and a good one for me) and he's not afraid to do what he feels is right. It isn't always what I'd do, but he's the manager (not me) and thus far, he's largely been proven correct (12 points from 15)…I was sad AVB didn't work out, I was sadder to find out he had given up too, but there we go, that's life. We can pick apart the wisdom/non-wisdom, but the facts are that Sherwood is our manager and he's doing a pretty decent job all-told. Is he the long-term answer? Who could possibly know at this stage? Have there been downs? Absolutely. But generally speaking, he has thus far got far more right IMO than he's got wrong, not the least of which was getting the players back on footing with a style they seem comfortable with (which is smart, first, short-term, do what needs to be done to steady the ship, roll with it for a while and THEN consider 'the next' style/move). He deserves our support.

+1

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

+1

+2, I'm liking the cut of his Jibb at the moment.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

With some aspects I agree, but he seems to have undone a lot of the good work we'd already done.

If time is his limiting resource, undoing what is already good is not a clever way to start.

I'd be interested in hearing what you percieve this good work to be?

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'd be interested in hearing what you percieve this good work to be?

Not sure what Scara's answers would be, but the way that I look at it as I have a similar concern.

- AVB (Pro's) was we kept possession well, center of team was very strong, we kept possession high on pitch, generally difficult to beat (bar the implosions, which we can argue separately as to the why)
- AVB (cons) was team was often too slow with moving the ball, ran out of ideas in final third and didn't commit enough to attack, high line could be exposed

The easy fix to me would have been

- Work on changing the tempo of passing, players making quicker/earlier runs, especially in final 3rd
- commit midfielders to attacks (get into box)
- Work with defense to minimize exposure (covering DM?)

TS seems to be so eager to be anti-AVB that we aren't really taking advantage of the good stuff AVB did, the main one likely to bite us in the ass is the strength and possession through the middle. when AVB's side played well it was very difficult to go through our middle, something great to see after years of Spurs teams "soft in center" and to be fair it was something Redknapp started with Wilson -> Parker -> Sandro, AVB just took it further.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

TS seems to be so eager to be anti-AVB that we aren't really taking advantage of the good stuff AVB did, the main one likely to bite us in the ass is the strength and possession through the middle. when AVB's side played well it was very difficult to go through our middle, something great to see after years of Spurs teams "soft in center" and to be fair it was something Redknapp started with Wilson -> Parker -> Sandro, AVB just took it further.

I disagree with you here. IMO the way that AVB had us 'strong in the middle' was by simply ensuring it was overloaded with players and therefore little space (a lone centre forward, two inverted wide players and a very high defensive line). Against weaker teams it may have made us look strong in the middle as the opposition didn't have the technical skills to exploit it's weaknesses, but against the better teams we looked in desperate trouble whenever they got the ball, with us being extremely susceptible to balls in behind (as Emirates Marketing Project and then Liverpool badly exploited).

Arsenal also did the same early in the season when a very good game from Lloris saved us from a worse scoreline, while we controlled about 65% of possession without really carving out a proper chance in the whole game.

Even West Ham managed to exploit AVB's sytsem by packing the middle of the park in a similar fashion but then having three runners all attempting to get in behind us as soon as they got posession.

AVB's overloading the middle with players also made it too easy for teams to defend against us - especially when combined with our ridiculously slow, safety first, (boring) build up play.

I feel that we are now stronger through the middle as an overall unit if we consider balance between defence and attack. TS strengthened us through the middle in an attacking sense by bringing our best centre forward back in from the cold and combining him with a partner, with both centre forwards given license to pull wide and also drop off into the space.

The opposition may get more of the ball now in any given game, but they probably look less like scoring when they get it when compared to our performances under AVB. I also feel that we look far more likely to score even if we're only controlling 55% of the ball now compared to when we had 65% or 70% under AVB. Sometimes you have to be prepared to sacrifice a bit of possession to help you in the creation of chances - it is a simple fact that playing at a faster pace, moving the ball more quickly and taking a chance will lead to you making more mistakes with the ball and giving it away more often, but it will also result in the opposition being less able to organise themselves and therefore result in more scoring chances created and (hopefully) then more goals scored.

 

[DHSF]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Not sure what Scara's answers would be, but the way that I look at it as I have a similar concern.

- AVB (Pro's) was we kept possession well, center of team was very strong, we kept possession high on pitch, generally difficult to beat (bar the implosions, which we can argue separately as to the why)
- AVB (cons) was team was often too slow with moving the ball, ran out of ideas in final third and didn't commit enough to attack, high line could be exposed

The easy fix to me would have been

- Work on changing the tempo of passing, players making quicker/earlier runs, especially in final 3rd
- commit midfielders to attacks (get into box)
- Work with defense to minimize exposure (covering DM?)

TS seems to be so eager to be anti-AVB that we aren't really taking advantage of the good stuff AVB did, the main one likely to bite us in the ass is the strength and possession through the middle. when AVB's side played well it was very difficult to go through our middle, something great to see after years of Spurs teams "soft in center" and to be fair it was something Redknapp started with Wilson -> Parker -> Sandro, AVB just took it further.

If it were easy to fix why didnt AVB fix them? And he did have time to fix them - either it was him resisting to change (stubborn) or they arent actually easy to fix because those tactics employed were so rigid.

He doesnt seem to be eager to be anti AVB. Can some of you not appreciate (or fathom) that Tim has his way of playing, and as Steff says and I have said in the past, Tim had to radically make things simpler and then over time start implementing those changes to make us a bit more solid. Its about getting things back to the basics that the players understand hopefully playing to their potential and abilities thus improving confidence. It seems to be working.

 

[Cochise]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Here's an interesting stat from Opta:

Under Andre Villas-Boas, Tottenham had the lowest conversion rate in the Premier League (7%) but in the period under Tim Sherwood they have the highest rate in the division (23%).

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Here's an interesting stat from Opta:

Under Andre Villas-Boas, Tottenham had the lowest conversion rate in the Premier League (7%) but in the period under Tim Sherwood they have the highest rate in the division (23%).

My thoughts are that this is probably because we had so many hopeful shots from outside the area under AVB.... Our slow build up led to us pushing the opposition back but the route to goal then being very crowded with no way through so us having to resort to a shot from outside the area. Whereas under Sherwood we're getting in behind the opposition and creating proper chances again.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

My thoughts are that this is probably because we had so many hopeful shots from outside the area under AVB.... Our slow build up led to us pushing the opposition back but the route to goal then being very crowded with no way through so us having to resort to a shot from outside the area. Whereas under Sherwood we're getting in behind the opposition and creating proper chances again.

Spot on.

 

[AdamB]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So we are going to be selling a couple players. Really dont agree with this - loan them out yes, but why start dismatling our squad mid-season?


When asked if he was willing to let players go, he said: "Yes, absolutely. As long as they're the players I don't want to take us forwards, then I'm happy (to sell them).

"But it's sometimes a case of supply and demand. We've got fantastic players here at the club and if we were to lose no one I wouldn't be shedding any tears, but you can only go with a certain amount of players and the pressure's on because it's a World Cup year for a lot of these players. It's important that they're playing.

"We can't guarantee that they're going to get maximum game time, but we certainly won't be leaving ourselves short."

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11675/9120649

 

[Cochise]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

"Yes, absolutely. As long as they're the players I don't want to take us forwards, then I'm happy" - So a big two fingers to those that we know he doesn't rate (Capoue for one).

As someone else said, he's talking like a man who has the job for longer than the next few months, the guy is talking long term. Right now though, we don't know what he is planning to do to take us forward so who stays and who goes is big fat question mark. Assuming the wonky 442 is his preference then you could argue that we will only be keeping one defensive midfielder and likely offloading Sig and Holtby. Certainly we will need another stiker