Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Either that or you don't have any. I'll settle on the latter "If three things are not enough to verify an affirmative proposition about things, a fourth must be added, and so on."

Do you have any more probable reasons that Levy employed Timmeh than what Timmeh told Levy he would/could do?

I assume from your quote that you're suggesting I've reduced multiple variables into one. That may be the case, but it still stands that managerial ability was not one of Levy's criteria as that's impossible.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Do you have any more probable reasons that Levy employed Timmeh than what Timmeh told Levy he would/could do?

I assume from your quote that you're suggesting I've reduced multiple variables into one. That may be the case, but it still stands that managerial ability was not one of Levy's criteria as that's impossible.

For some reason I don't think Levy is as gullible as to believe one man's word about the ability to do a job and that other factors and opinions would have been taken into account other than Sherwood saying "I'm the man."

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

For some reason I don't think Levy is as gullible as to believe one man's word about the ability to do a job and that other factors and opinions would have been taken into account other than Sherwood saying "I'm the man."

Yet it still remains that managerial ability (the important one) isn't one of them.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

For some reason I don't think Levy is as gullible as to believe one man's word about the ability to do a job and that other factors and opinions would have been taken into account other than Sherwood saying "I'm the man."

He's obviously not gullible, he's obviously heard good things, he's obviously taken references from important people that know what they are talking about and decided he was worth a go.

But it doesn't change the fact that he's had no managerial achievements thus far. You can say Pellegrini has a managerial career by which you can base some objective analysis of his ability on. You can't say the same about Sherwood because there isn't one to analyse. No matter how good his patter is or even his ideas, it's still an element of risk to an extent.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yet it still remains that managerial ability (the important one) isn't one of them.

I agree he has no proven track record but it appears you and many others are prepared to assume he's a dud before giving him a chance to prove otherwise. The level of dislike for him borders on being phobic.

He's obviously not gullible, he's obviously heard good things, he's obviously taken references from important people that know what they are talking about and decided he was worth a go.

But it doesn't change the fact that he's had no managerial achievements thus far. You can say Pellegrini has a managerial career by which you can base some objective analysis of his ability on. You can't say the same about Sherwood because there isn't one to analyse. No matter how good his patter is or even his ideas, it's still an element of risk to an extent.

Risky yes but at some time every manager has to manage his first club, we're 4-1-0 in the EPL under him and people still want him out (indeed never wanted him in in the first place), what guarantee is there that van gaal or any other proven manager would come in and achieve any different. We've been down that road too many time before why not take a different route.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree he has no proven track record but it appears you and many others are prepared to assume he's a dud before giving him a chance to prove otherwise. The level of dislike for him borders on being phobic.

I'm not assuming anything (well, I am but I'm not posting about it).

My point is that in appointing Timmeh (no matter how good or bad he one day may be) can only ever be a mistake because at the time he had no evidence of being a good manager.

 

[FatBloke]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But it doesn't change the fact that he's had no managerial achievements thus far. You can say Pellegrini has a managerial career by which you can base some objective analysis of his ability on. You can't say the same about Sherwood because there isn't one to analyse. No matter how good his patter is or even his ideas, it's still an element of risk to an extent.

I thought that way at first but, the more I think about it, the more I think the timing is right. Sherwood's been at the club a while, and run a very successful youth setup. Levy has seen how he works, and no doubt has had feedback from various other "footballing men" like Redknapp (t'riffic lad!) and Hughton (although I may be completely wrong with my timings here). Which is actually more of an indicator of whether you can work with someone than just looking at a successful external candidate's CV.

I also think many people are prepared, after the West Ham, Emirates Marketing Project and Liverpool games, to write off CL chances this season. If we get it, great. And it wasn't looking that way with AVB -- for whatever reason, his Plan A wasn't working. Possibly even his Plan B. So, with a talented bunch of players, it's unlikely that Sherwood would do any worse.

And lastly, if it doesn't work out, Levy can let him go. Levy wins, as he has the time to find a proper manager properly. Sherwood wins, as he gets himself in the shop window. And Spurs win, as there's unlikely to be huge compensation and, hopefully, there are plenty of top managers thinking about the Spurs job towards the end of the season.

Fingers crossed!

I should make it clear that I liked AVB. I'd have been perfectly happy for him to stay on, and hadn't been calling for his head at any point. However, in any relationship, sometimes one or both parties changes and it just no longer works.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm not assuming anything (well, I am but I'm not posting about it).

My point is that in appointing Timmeh (no matter how good or bad he one day may be) can only ever be a mistake because at the time he had no evidence of being a good manager.

Whereas apponting a manager with international experience and championship winning credentials can't be?

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Whereas apponting a manager with international experience and championship winning credentials can't be?

It can be a mistake and it can be a correct decision. Not all experienced managers will be a success, but they would have been chosen for the right reasons at least.

We're not Southampton or West Ham, remember. There are good managers out there who, despite Levy's inability to hold his nerve for more than 18 months, would be willing to work for us.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It can be a mistake and it can be a correct decision. Not all experienced managers will be a success, but they would have been chosen for the right reasons at least.

We're not Southampton or West Ham, remember. There are good managers out there who, despite Levy's inability to hold his nerve for more than 18 months, would be willing to work for us.

Perhaps he didn't want another Santini moment and went with someone he felt he could trust to manage the team until either a new manager could be found or "Timmeh" actually proved himself this season as being able to manage at the highest level.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Perhaps he didn't want another Santini moment and went with someone he felt he could trust to manage the team until either a new manager could be found or "Timmeh" actually proved himself this season as being able to manage at the highest level.

That's what I'm hoping. I'm not impressed with Timmeh publicly holding the club to ransom over his contract, but I'm hoping that Levy thought it was easier to write-off 12 months of his pay than to look for another interim manager until LvG or someone becomes available.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That's what I'm hoping. I'm not impressed with Timmeh publicly holding the club to ransom over his contract, but I'm hoping that Levy thought it was easier to write-off 12 months of his pay than to look for another interim manager until LvG or someone becomes available.

My main gripe is too many people don't seem to be prepared to give him this month let alone this season as manager.

Let him be judged on his results not on his lack of experience.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree he has no proven track record but it appears you and many others are prepared to assume he's a dud before giving him a chance to prove otherwise. The level of dislike for him borders on being phobic.




Risky yes but at some time every manager has to manage his first club, we're 4-1-0 in the EPL under him and people still want him out (indeed never wanted him in in the first place), what guarantee is there that van gaal or any other proven manager would come in and achieve any different. We've been down that road too many time before why not take a different route.

I reckon Van Gaal is nailed on if we want to go for him. He wants the PL, and we would be the best PL job going and his most realistic chance of getting one - Man United isn't him if they do chuck Moysie out with the bathwater.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Tim's made a rod for his own back with his 'football is a simple game' and 'managers always talk about the project. The truth is you win games or you get sacked' comments. His political skill and persona have gotten him into this position to be given a chance. If he delivers, he's going to be hailed as a damn fine young coach, who backed up his claims with ability and as a master stroke appointment by Levy. If we stumble into 6th, Im pretty sure he will be gone and we will bring a proven winner like Van Gaal in.

That is the stake he is playing at. He clearly believe he was worth the opportunity and now he has to deliver. But if he doesn't, we aren't Swansea, we are Spurs. We are going to bring a winner in as give him the backing because frankly considering past managerial achievements, he has more chance than Sherwood of succeeding. Sherwood won't have, until the end of this season, any proof of his ability as a Head Coach. That's why he's only been given 18 months and not a standard 3 years. It's an easy get out for if incase the experiment doesn't yield the exceptional results that are potentially there.

That's the philosophy you should have adopted when we were getting our us handed to us 0-3, 0-5, 0-6 (1 of those team being west ****ing sham at home). Sadly you adopted no such philosophy on any of those occasions.

What did you say about AVB's tactics after the City game? ah that's it...how that was a freak result and we'll always be 'in it" against our rivals because of the way our team is set out. What happened a few games later? 0-5 at home to a rival.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That's the philosophy you should have adopted when we were getting our us handed to us 0-3, 0-5, 0-6 (1 of those team being west ****ing sham at home). Sadly you adopted no such philosophy on any of those occasions.

What did you say about AVB's tactics after the City game? ah that's it...how that was a freak result and we'll always be 'in it" against our rivals being of the way our team is set out. What happened a few games later? 0-5 at home to a rival.

When results on the whole are good (and this season, they have been), singular results like that don't matter. They were all still 0 points, just like losing 1-0 would have been.

See THIS, THIS, THIS, THIS and THIS for details.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That's the philosophy you should have adopted when we were getting our us handed to us 0-3, 0-5, 0-6 (1 of those team being west ****ing sham at home). Sadly you adopted no such philosophy on any of those occasions.

What did you say about AVB's tactics after the City game? ah that's it...how that was a freak result and we'll always be 'in it" against our rivals because of the way our team is set out. What happened a few games later? 0-5 at home to a rival.

I'm talking about finishing position at the end of the season. If Tim performs averagely, and we stumble into 6th, there's absolutely no reason to give a further chance to an unproven manager. Tim has said himself football is a simple game, projects mean nothing and you need to win games or you get sacked, so he won't be able to complain should we give a manager with a track record of winning the chance to do what he couldn't.

When we were losing heavily under AVB, we always responded. It was a problem with the players' application of the system as opposed to their lack of effort or desire. At the start of the season I thought it was hilarious how we frustrated teams by catching them offside a ridiculous amount of times. It was drilled to perfection in a defensive sense, and then for whatever reason, it fell apart and it lead to massive defeats. If we weren't trying to play a system I don't think the defeats would have been as heavy.

Anyway, as I said, we responded well under AVB after big losses and were still on target to hit record points totals. If it was heavy defeat after heavy defeat in succession, I'd be much more inclined to say it's a problem the manager is unable to fix and we need to give someone else a go.

But I was judging AVB on long term objectives, since that is what he was trying to build. Sherwood has made a point of saying it's all about short term results. If he delivers them, I'll be delighted. If he doesn't, I welcome Van Gaal with open arms and hope we hold our nerve and back this guy properly.

 

[Briddo1882]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Scara'

....you obviously feel that Levy took the easy/incorrect option in appointing Sherwood based on the fact that he has no experience. I'll be honest and admit that I was also very sceptical feeling that his appointment was a strange choice. I felt that AVB, having been given the backing deserved the opportunity to see it through, however with hindsight I think that Sherwood is doing a pretty good job. I don't think he is as "green" and stupid as he is portrayed/portraying himself.

13 points from a possible 15 in the League is a creditable start. OK, the West Ham result was appalling and we lost to the Goons in the Cup (but we would have probably lost that anyway).

I quite like his comments in the Press, he brushes them off with flippant answers. Most of the time the interviewer asks stupid, banal questions anyway so for me the flippancy is quite refreshing.

I like the fact that he is willing to give the players a huge rollocking at half time to make them up their game in the 2nd half.

Even some of his tactical changes have been good, eg. taking off a knackered Soldado at OT and putting on Kane (seemed odd at the time, but with hindsight most have agreed that it was a good decision)

I am warming to him as a manager (I never liked him as a player, even when he played for us). Don't you think he might just be playing a game with the media, but behind the scenes is a bloke that really knows what he is doing? People that know him, and more importantly his work speak very highly of him - maybe they know something we don't. It will be interesting to hear players verdicts later down the line.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm not assuming anything (well, I am but I'm not posting about it).

My point is that in appointing Timmeh (no matter how good or bad he one day may be) can only ever be a mistake because at the time he had no evidence of being a good manager.

Except his work managing the youth teams.
Which cannot be dismissed out of hand.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Except his work managing the youth teams.
Which cannot be dismissed out of hand.

His 15 months after taking over Inglethorpe's all-conquering side, after Inglethorpe got poached by Liverpool, you mean?

 

[JerusalemMan]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

His 15 months after taking over Inglethorpe's all-conquering side, after Inglethorpe got poached by Liverpool, you mean?

Those are the ones.