Sick sick world what is wrong with people

[thfcsteff]

Steff I think you and I actually agree on a lot of stuff on this topic. I certainly agree with your remarks that the working class were deliberately broken up by the system.

You know what, I took part in it. I did up flats to sell on around 2002 onwards and I also had buy to let flats. I took part in one of the biggest things to hurt the working class. The property boom. I actually feel a bit of guilt about that. Worked my gonad*s off but I don't agree with the buy to let thing. Yet did it myself.

Agree the is a battle for English identity. Maybe why I don't like it when we are criticised so much. Im never standing up for Tommy Robinson and the like, but I am standing up for England and the English.

Immigration has done a lot for the country and will always be needed and we should always take genuine refugees fleeing for their lives. Its just numbers that are the issues.

Plus also how do we make the world more equal. Think things like the EU shafting the African farmers does not help. Im all for a fairer world. Think we only really disagree on how to get there.

Indeed!!!!!

The English identity aspect is really important. For me, it is a conversation which has become hijacked. Unfortunately, the far right have hijacked it and turned it into some 'nationalistic' debate, in turn injecting their own racist brick into the mix, which stains everything. But the topic deserves clearer conversation for sure. I actually believe it has little to do with immigration and refugees versus the way in which British (and maybe western) society(ies) have been dragged further and further from their underpinnings of society-supportive ideals to speed-based wreckless consumers at the expense of anything other than the tangible 'end'.

Britain was always known for it's sense of fairness, warmth, inclusion, generally cheerful spirit, neighbourly attitudes, and humour among other things. Somewhere in the churn, it's all getting muddled.
I still have my Grandmother's Silver Jubilee biscuit tin (it has been a teabag caddy for decades). I have several QEII bone china mugs, an extraordinary Duke of Edinburgh one, and even one of the Queen Mother! I am hardly a staunch royalist in any sense, and I certainly have no positivity whatsoever about our colonialism. But I do like having a cuppa in one of those mugs sometimes (the tea caddy? Greatest irony there is my Grandmother was from Dublin!).

We were always so friendly and welcoming to all. That seems to be disappearing at a rate of knots. Perhaps that's just the world cycle we're in? But somewhere in there, I agree that there has to be a safe middle ground where people can enjoy their Englishness without being thrown under the bus by packs of racist clams, and where the many, many, many great contributors who have come from overseas don't feel like a 'them' and instead are once again welcomed into knowing they're an 'us'...the Tommy Robinson's and Farage's should not be allowed to hijack and co-opt the scenario for their own gains and games.

((Equally, I very much enjoy several aspects of my Irishness (including the wonderful countryside again, soda bread, and dry wit as displayed by the marvelous Oscar Wilde). Sadly, my Iranian side has been compromised by much fudgery, which began in the 50s and continued into the revolution when my Bahai relatives lost everything in one fell purge (Bahai's continue to be in danger)))

 

[glasgowspur]

Indeed!!!!!

The English identity aspect is really important. For me, it is a conversation which has become hijacked. Unfortunately, the far right have hijacked it and turned it into some 'nationalistic' debate, in turn injecting their own racist brick into the mix, which stains everything. But the topic deserves clearer conversation for sure. I actually believe it has little to do with immigration and refugees versus the way in which British (and maybe western) society(ies) have been dragged further and further from their underpinnings of society-supportive ideals to speed-based wreckless consumers at the expense of anything other than the tangible 'end'.

Britain was always known for it's sense of fairness, warmth, inclusion, generally cheerful spirit, neighbourly attitudes, and humour among other things. Somewhere in the churn, it's all getting muddled.
I still have my Grandmother's Silver Jubilee biscuit tin (it has been a teabag caddy for decades). I have several QEII bone china mugs, an extraordinary Duke of Edinburgh one, and even one of the Queen Mother! I am hardly a staunch royalist in any sense, and I certainly have no positivity whatsoever about our colonialism. But I do like having a cuppa in one of those mugs sometimes (the tea caddy? Greatest irony there is my Grandmother was from Dublin!).

We were always so friendly and welcoming to all. That seems to be disappearing at a rate of knots. Perhaps that's just the world cycle we're in? But somewhere in there, I agree that there has to be a safe middle ground where people can enjoy their Englishness without being thrown under the bus by packs of racist clams, and where the many, many, many great contributors who have come from overseas don't feel like a 'them' and instead are once again welcomed into knowing they're an 'us'...the Tommy Robinson's and Farage's should not be allowed to hijack and co-opt the scenario for their own gains and games.

((Equally, I very much enjoy several aspects of my Irishness (including the wonderful countryside again, soda bread, and dry wit as displayed by the marvelous Oscar Wilde). Sadly, my Iranian side has been compromised by much fudgery, which began in the 50s and continued into the revolution when my Bahai relatives lost everything in one fell purge (Bahai's continue to be in danger)))

Somewhere along the road being English for English people has become toxic.
I probably have more English friends than Scottish ones, from Manchester to Felpham and all points in between, from all walks of life, police force to eminent medical professionals, they don't like being too proud of being English.
The only English friend I have who is proud of being English is three quarters Irish, a staunch catholic and married to a columbian.
Must be strange to be English at the moment.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Somewhere along the road being English for English people has become toxic.
I probably have more English friends than Scottish ones, from Manchester to Felpham and all points in between, from all walks of life, police force to eminent medical professionals, they don't like being too proud of being English.
The only English friend I have who is proud of being English is three quarters Irish, a staunch catholic and married to a columbian.
Must be strange to be English at the moment.

I've always considered myself British, I suppose it's having English, Irish and Scots friends and family. The only time I see myself as English is when I'm watching a sporting event, I love it when we have a British Lions tour and the Olympics and we pull together.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Answers below.



That's an assumption on your part.




I've written repeatedly over time about what I feel the reasons are behind the rise of extremism everywhere. The recent riots? There's a dialectic. When false facts get pumped out and some people go blindly with those and start beating certain people up, threatening them, and smashing brick up, I think they should take responsibility for being 'played' regardless of their own (possibly desperate) situations and residual anger over their situations. Either that, or they believe in what they were doing and saying. In which case they are what they are.





You are not the only working class person here mate. I grew up on council estates and still rent my accomodations to this day. I live and work just outside what would be recognised as 'the normal system'. The working class hasn't had the tinkle taken out of it more than it's been systematically broken by decades of economic policy and underinvestment in national education which whispered things such as 'trickle down economics' and promised 'false gold' but actually fudged it. IMO.




Snobbery has always existed sadly, and yes, dialect is an easy target.

I think there is a great battle for English identity. People want to be able to celebrate being English without being written off as blinkered nationalists. I personally have always gone to England matches since the late 70s, and still go when I can to this day. I have England gear too. I am proud of the national team and support them loudly. I deplore how extremists have managed to skillfully hijack it and turned it into something it is not.

One part of this discussion which I think is interesting is what England is to people. A lot of my emotions and expectations are driven by a nostalgia which when examined is actually not very accurate. These days, I find that what I love about England (in no order) is -

the countryside
the North
East London
the train journeys
driving in the countryside
walking in central London in the evening
and (of course) Tottenham

Nice list

 

[yiddo37]

I've always considered myself British, I suppose it's having English, Irish and Scots friends and family. The only time I see myself as English is when I'm watching a sporting event, I love it when we have a British Lions tour and the Olympics and we pull together.

Whenever I've been abroad and asked, I always have replied 'British', never 'English'. Come the Euros and World Cup support England first then the other home nations and Ireland. Other sports always team GB.

 

[Bullet]

For balance; I always say I'm English as I almost never go near or have anything to do with Wales/Scotland/N Ireland... and I don't really bang on about it because the English are the best nation, so it soon sounds like bragging.
Nobody wants to hear a Real Madrid fan wang on about how football should be played.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

The swift conclusion of some of these cases against the rioters is really setting a precedent.

Been reported that in Sussex my neck of the woods that 3 were sentenced yesterday. None for throwing petrol bombs or even bricks, as the were no violent outbreaks here.

It is said that they were posting 'what can be interrupted as racial hatred online

I would be interested to know what was actually said. If they were saying death to people or that people should be beaten up im all for it, though they should get longer then 14 weeks. But I think we need to know what has actually been said and done or frankly it will just alienate that part of our society more.

Bit like how they keep trying to go after JK Rowling for talking about the trans issue.

Im curious about where this is all going to end up.

 

[Grays_1890]

Snobbery has always existed sadly, and yes, dialect is an easy target.

I think there is a great battle for English identity. People want to be able to celebrate being English without being written off as blinkered nationalists. I personally have always gone to England matches since the late 70s, and still go when I can to this day. I have England gear too. I am proud of the national team and support them loudly. I deplore how extremists have managed to skillfully hijack it and turned it into something it is not.

One part of this discussion which I think is interesting is what England is to people. A lot of my emotions and expectations are driven by a nostalgia which when examined is actually not very accurate. These days, I find that what I love about England (in no order) is -

the countryside
the North
East London
the train journeys
driving in the countryside
walking in central London in the evening
and (of course) Tottenham

I think this is a really interesting point.

The main reason this happens, and I am a proud "Englisher", but it generally happens because people hijack a movement and then those people can't then explain what their loss of identity looks like, you can't feel less of an identity of what England means to you just because there are less English natives IMO, but then again I suppose thats for others to decide, but thats generally what the bigots who hijack the conversation boil it down to.

Equally with the riots, I get the idea that not both sides are afford the same respect in asking the questions but again the Riots on the, dare I say right, those were again hijacked by swastika tattooed ex NF types who basically wanted to use it as an excuse to crack coloured folk over the head and burning immigrants in hotels. I would argue if anyone wanted a clearer voice on their frustrations then they need to look at their fellow man for spoiling the message, not blaming people for not listening.

As I say I am a proud English man, like many here had the privilege to travel the world and thats likely made me prouder because people on the other side abroad see it as a badge of honour and always ask questions, I don't then feel any less because the UK has become more multicultural, that does nothing to take away what England means to me personally

 

[Mikey10]

The swift conclusion of some of these cases against the rioters is really setting a precedent.

Been reported that in Sussex my neck of the woods that 3 were sentenced yesterday. None for throwing petrol bombs or even bricks, as the were no violent outbreaks here.

It is said that they were posting 'what can be interrupted as racial hatred online

I would be interested to know what was actually said. If they were saying death to people or that people should be beaten up im all for it, though they should get longer then 14 weeks. But I think we need to know what has actually been said and done or frankly it will just alienate that part of our society more.

Bit like how they keep trying to go after JK Rowling for talking about the trans issue.

Im curious about where this is all going to end up.

Hopefully with people not able to spout vile s hit online with impunity. Agree, though, that it’s a very tricky area, allowing the balance with free speech (and agree re the unfair persecution of JK Rowling).

According to BBC South News last night, one of those sentenced yesterday was encouraging people online to burn down hotels which housed asylum seekers, so sounds very much like she got what she deserved.

 

[Grays_1890]

Hopefully with people not able to spout vile s hit online with impunity. Agree, though, that it’s a very tricky area, allowing the balance with free speech (and agree re the unfair persecution of JK Rowling).

According to BBC South News last night, one of those sentenced yesterday was encouraging people online to burn down hotels which housed asylum seekers, so sounds very much like she got what she deserved.

Yeh I have seen pretty much the same, the content and context is out there on all cases, all I have seen have either been racist and or trying to incite violence, people getting what they deserve IMO. Online is the new streets in the modern world, people have just believed differently for getting away with racism online for too long

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Hopefully with people not able to spout vile s hit online with impunity. Agree, though, that it’s a very tricky area, allowing the balance with free speech (and agree re the unfair persecution of JK Rowling).

According to BBC South News last night, one of those sentenced yesterday was encouraging people online to burn down hotels which housed asylum seekers, so sounds very much like she got what she deserved.

Yeah anyone doing that deserves a long long sentence.

As for JK Rowling I never got the issue with her views.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Brilliant post! Especially the last paragraph. Feels like I wrote it myself. I’d like to add Cornwall and the Cotswolds to the list. The English countryside in particular is beautiful, particularly in the spring and summer.

The new Forrest for me
But there are so so so many areas that are truly stunning

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yeah anyone doing that deserves a long long sentence.

As for JK Rowling I never got the issue with her views.

At least she sticks with them even if some people dont agree with her

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Somewhere along the road being English for English people has become toxic.
I probably have more English friends than Scottish ones, from Manchester to Felpham and all points in between, from all walks of life, police force to eminent medical professionals, they don't like being too proud of being English.
The only English friend I have who is proud of being English is three quarters Irish, a staunch catholic and married to a columbian.
Must be strange to be English at the moment.

It’s when it’s thrown in yours face as “I’m England till I die” and all the brick that goes with that
I’m touring round bits of France and three times I’ve been asked where we’re from
We try to speak but if french but we get lazy quickly and people want to practice their English
Just yesterday at a zip line climbing place we were stopped twice at the same location saying our Dutch accent is odd and are we Australian. No sorry we’re English. Then it’s what part of London … 80 KMs away near to Cambridge. The so far everyone has a story about an English friend or relative

I’m gonna get a bit evangelical now
The world is small
We are in a position where we can get across it in a day
We have technology that connects us with anyone anywhere if they have phone or even video if they are the right tech
We know more about the world and the people and the planet than ever
But what sells well is bad brick… negativity…. Divisiveness and jealousy
That’s a scary state really
Why do we revel in bad brick with so much genuine good out there
How quickly are wars close to many homes forgotten to the point they are accepted
Why do we still have a situation where money is what matters most

I tell my kids that one they finish school they have to travel. They see my travel map on my wall in the office and they enjoy watching the race around the world with me and the wife, it’s regularly “have you been there Daddy” and in lots of cases it’s a yes… so they have a thirst to spread their wings and see the world rather then look inwards

And that looking inwards is what the issue is I think. No one really likes change. When starting a new project or team I always do a change exercise to break the ice. Simple one too

You get wry one to pair up. Face each other and look for 20/30 seconds. Then turn their backs and change tiwnoices if their clothing however they want. Get them to return and identify what’s changed… that’s the way bit. They then think “meh”. Then ask them to sit down and the first one tries ti change something bak is the one you jump on. They are the first to not accept the change they chose.

That’s what’s happened. I’m 48 next week. I never saw a George cross anywhere growing up other than in odd fancy dress things and at castles and stuff. Now it’s a matter of “my flag, my rights”… WTF!!!! i grew up with a pan Argentina shirt because of Ossie ( bad timing just before the falklands). Scotland shirts because of my grandads and spurs shirts, I still have several Scotland shirts in my collection,

We aren’t the people where were born, we’re the people we choose to make ourselves, we are only here because some man jizzed in our mums at the right time and we survived. That’s the lottery win right there

 

[Jurgen the German]

At least she sticks with them even if some people dont agree with her

Yes it’s very easy to go with the narrative and say things like “I’ve always believed men can get pregnant” out loud. Sharron Davies is equally as vocal when it comes to women’s sport, clearly doesn’t have the same profile as Rowling but she doesn’t give a brick if people try and silence her or call her transphobic when she’s clearly fudging not.

 

[glasgowspur]

It’s when it’s thrown in yours face as “I’m England till I die” and all the brick that goes with that
I’m touring round bits of France and three times I’ve been asked where we’re from
We try to speak but if french but we get lazy quickly and people want to practice their English
Just yesterday at a zip line climbing place we were stopped twice at the same location saying our Dutch accent is odd and are we Australian. No sorry we’re English. Then it’s what part of London … 80 KMs away near to Cambridge. The so far everyone has a story about an English friend or relative

I’m gonna get a bit evangelical now
The world is small
We are in a position where we can get across it in a day
We have technology that connects us with anyone anywhere if they have phone or even video if they are the right tech
We know more about the world and the people and the planet than ever
But what sells well is bad brick… negativity…. Divisiveness and jealousy
That’s a scary state really
Why do we revel in bad brick with so much genuine good out there
How quickly are wars close to many homes forgotten to the point they are accepted
Why do we still have a situation where money is what matters most

I tell my kids that one they finish school they have to travel. They see my travel map on my wall in the office and they enjoy watching the race around the world with me and the wife, it’s regularly “have you been there Daddy” and in lots of cases it’s a yes… so they have a thirst to spread their wings and see the world rather then look inwards

And that looking inwards is what the issue is I think. No one really likes chabirthday ge. When starting a new project or team I always do a change exercise to break the ice. Simple one too

You get wry one to pair up. Face each other and look for 20/30 seconds. Then turn their backs and change tiwnoices if their clothing however they want. Get them to return and identify what’s changed… that’s the way bit. They then think “meh”. Then ask them to sit down and the first one tries ti change something bak is the one you jump on. They are the first to not accept the change they chose.

That’s what’s happened. I’m 48 next week. I never saw a George cross anywhere growing up other than in odd fancy dress things and at castles and stuff. Now it’s a matter of “my flag, my rights”… WTF!!!! i grew up with a pan Argentina shirt because of Ossie ( bad timing just before the falklands). Scotland shirts because of my grandads and spurs shirts, I still have several Scotland shirts in my collection,

We aren’t the people where were born, we’re the people we choose to make ourselves, we are only here because some man jizzed in our mums at the right time and we survived. That’s the lottery win right there

I have strange relationship with the country of my birth, I love it and loathe it, same with it's inhabitants.
The wife and I love to travel, meet new and different people, see how others live and try and experience a different lifestyle because to be honest it's brick here and we Scots seem to revel in it.
Just turned 56, literally counting the months until we retire at 1 o'clock on the 21st December 2029 and we sell up, pack up and head off into the real world.
The grey gap year is beckoning, I want some of what the rest of the world has.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yes it’s very easy to go with the narrative and say things like “I’ve always believed men can get pregnant” out loud. Sharron Davies is equally as vocal when it comes to women’s sport, clearly doesn’t have the same profile as Rowling but she doesn’t give a brick if people try and silence her or call her transphobic when she’s clearly fudging not.

She was also robbed of medals because of it and therefore lost out financially and profile wise (I’m referring to East Germany and the old soviet block in swimming)

 

[Jurgen the German]

She was also robbed of medals because of it and therefore lost out financially and profile wise (I’m referring to East Germany and the old soviet block in swimming)

I’m sure many (if not the majority) of female and male athletes have similar views and feelings as Davies but are afraid of a backlash if they voice it. I guess they feel like they may lose support or endorsements if they are open with their views so they wait until they retire before they share how they really feel. I see Laura Woods has commented on the Imane Khelif row and has taken the safety/fairness route.

 

[Rorschach]

I have strange relationship with the country of my birth, I love it and loathe it, same with it's inhabitants.
The wife and I love to travel, meet new and different people, see how others live and try and experience a different lifestyle because to be honest it's brick here and we Scots seem to revel in it.
Just turned 56, literally counting the months until we retire at 1 o'clock on the 21st December 2029 and we sell up, pack up and head off into the real world.
The grey gap year is beckoning, I want some of what the rest of the world has.

Can you describe why you feel that way about your country? I can safely say I have not met a Scot I didn't like but my experience of the country is limited to one visit as as young man.

 

[glasgowspur]

Can you describe why you feel that way about your country? I can safely say I have not met a Scot I didn't like but my experience of the country is limited to one visit as as young man.

The weather, which I'm sure you must experience as well, is a big factor, but the biggest thing is the attitude.
It's difficult to quantify because obviously there's 5 million of us and we're all different, however there's this mindset that we call "gallus" best summed up by the phrase
Wha's like us, gey few and thier aw died.
That comes from a poem that for me just sums us up. We're brilliant, and then throw it all away because we're better than everyone else.
Something that a few of my friends have talked about in the last 10 years is that we are the most contrarian and and anti establishment countries you will find, and yet recently we have become like sheep, we follow the loudest voice, there is no reasoning, no accountability, everything is crap but it is our crap.