Sick sick world what is wrong with people

[Grays_1890]

I don't disagree. Just pointing out that the things you said would be acceptable are exactly the things that are happening now.

If we want to lower the immigration numbers, then we need to train people here to do the skilled jobs that currently need overseas workers to fill.
That will take time (at least Labour have said they want to do this, whether it happens remains to be seen) but it may also mean we have to be willing to pay more for goods and services (and companies have to be willing to pay their staff more).because the 'native' population is not going to accept the lower wages that immigrants often have to.
Blaming immigration for our woes is misplaced (not saying you were). It's choices made by politicians that have put us where we are.

This is spot on, well played

 

[SpurMeUp]

It is but net migration has run into the 100,000s each year for the past decade or more. It's reached a level that needs resolving.

What I find funny is Brexit made it 'worse'. The other tension is that the economy feeds off immigration. Businesses need people to work etc. Yet the UK is overloaded. We have the same population as France, with half the space.

Part of the solution is generating more growth in the north of the UK. Population density in the north east and scotland is low.

I think we should lament the old system where we have less than a third of the immigration we have today. Where people from Poland etc came to the UK to work the jobs Brits didn't want, then got on a coach and went back again often. Or stayed, and contributed to our society and economy. Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, the UK should have done what Hungry or others do, and make people register when they move over, and send people back if they are not working. All legal under EU law.

The other option is to move to Frnace yourself!

 

[SpurMeUp]

I don't disagree. Just pointing out that the things you said would be acceptable are exactly the things that are happening now.

If we want to lower the immigration numbers, then we need to train people here to do the skilled jobs that currently need overseas workers to fill.
That will take time (at least Labour have said they want to do this, whether it happens remains to be seen) but it may also mean we have to be willing to pay more for goods and services (and companies have to be willing to pay their staff more).because the 'native' population is not going to accept the lower wages that immigrants often have to.
Blaming immigration for our woes is misplaced (not saying you were). It's choices made by politicians that have put us where we are.

It is not just the skilled jobs. In some ways skilled jobs are easier to address. Because there tends to be a more money on the table, you can attract people once trained. Or attract them to train up.

But unless we go backwards as a society, unless we stop educating and training people, we will continue to struggle to fill unskilled roles. No one wants them or their kids to do the dirtiest jobs on building sites. Or wait tables. Or clean up in care homes.

Atm immigration feeds our need for these roles. Previously the EU allowed us to access a massive labour pool to fill such roles. Which was also problamatic, it wasn't perfect. It boosted our economy but individuals who'd say drove a bus for a decade, and didn't get a pay rise becuase a Pole would come in and do the job if they didn't, wasn't really understood or appreciated. However, we had fruit pickers, builders etc

Now...immigration is feeding our economy and helping our aging society. But people are packed into the south of England, and we can't solve one 'problem' without impact on the other. Which do we prioritise the economy - which propvides money for the NHS, teachers wages etc - or less people in the UK? The true reason we have so much immigration is because no one has solved this dichotomy.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It is not just the skilled jobs. In some ways skilled jobs are easier to address. Because there tends to be a more money on the table, you can attract people once trained. Or attract them to train up.

But unless we go backwards as a society, unless we stop educating and training people, we will continue to struggle to fill unskilled roles. No one wants them or their kids to do the dirtiest jobs on building sites. Or wait tables. Or clean up in care homes.

Atm immigration feeds our need for these roles. Previously the EU allowed us to access a massive labour pool to fill such roles. Which was also problamatic, it wasn't perfect. It boosted our economy but individuals who'd say drove a bus for a decade, and didn't get a pay rise becuase a Pole would come in and do the job if they didn't, wasn't really understood or appreciated. However, we had fruit pickers, builders etc

Now...immigration is feeding our economy and helping our aging society. But people are packed into the south of England, and we can't solve one 'problem' without impact on the other. Which do we prioritise the economy - which propvides money for the NHS, teachers wages etc - or less people in the UK? The true reason we have so much immigration is because no one has solved this dichotomy.

It’s the low paid and unskilled job that’s the issue
My company is the world largest cleaning company and we pay above minimum wage (not much though and not my area)
We struggle to get anyone who isn’t an immigrant as no one wants those jobs
In America it’s worse. We have an agreement with the staff that they can factor their wages through a third party to get paid quicker and that third party takes a % of their wages. They are living day by day in a first world country. Most are immigrants but for them it’s better or the chance to have a better life

 

[SpurMeUp]

It’s the low paid and unskilled job that’s the issue
My company is the world largest cleaning company and we pay above minimum wage (not much though and not my area)
We struggle to get anyone who isn’t an immigrant as no one wants those jobs
In America it’s worse. We have an agreement with the staff that they can factor their wages through a third party to get paid quicker and that third party takes a % of their wages. They are living day by day in a first world country. Most are immigrants but for them it’s better or the chance to have a better life

Marxism does offer some ideas how to address this kind of issue. The principle of each according to their ability and each according to their needs. Put aside Communism we saw (which failed so spectacularly at running an economy centrally). Marx's idea was that societies would become so rich and productive that everyone could be looked after - each according to their need. Each contributing what they could.

What was missing from Communism as we saw it, was the cut throat efficiency of capitalism. An economy needs to reward the people who work hard to be effecient. You can't have a central control of the economy, it has to be decentralised with local people making things efficient.

But some of the premise of Marxism or Socialism really is sound. Create lots of facilities and value for people in lower paid jobs. Alter the focus on matieral, and emphasise community participation. It doesn't matter what your job is, if you're giving back to your community and it is supporting you back.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

It is not just the skilled jobs. In some ways skilled jobs are easier to address. Because there tends to be a more money on the table, you can attract people once trained. Or attract them to train up.

But unless we go backwards as a society, unless we stop educating and training people, we will continue to struggle to fill unskilled roles. No one wants them or their kids to do the dirtiest jobs on building sites. Or wait tables. Or clean up in care homes.

Atm immigration feeds our need for these roles. Previously the EU allowed us to access a massive labour pool to fill such roles. Which was also problamatic, it wasn't perfect. It boosted our economy but individuals who'd say drove a bus for a decade, and didn't get a pay rise becuase a Pole would come in and do the job if they didn't, wasn't really understood or appreciated. However, we had fruit pickers, builders etc

Now...immigration is feeding our economy and helping our aging society. But people are packed into the south of England, and we can't solve one 'problem' without impact on the other. Which do we prioritise the economy - which propvides money for the NHS, teachers wages etc - or less people in the UK? The true reason we have so much immigration is because no one has solved this dichotomy.

All true. I had focused on skilled labour as I think the lower paid roles ( probably unfair to call them all unskilled) will be harder to fill without immigration.
There was an item on the radio the other day that since the last government stopped overseas students and care workers being able to bring their families on their visas, the number of applicants has dropped. Now some may see that as a good thing. But without overseas students our universities will struggle or fees will need to be increased; and without overseas careworkers, the social care system is at risk of collapse - or again, care home fees will have to be increased.

It is not an easy one to fix without a long term strategic plan. But that’s not generally how government works.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I don't disagree. Just pointing out that the things you said would be acceptable are exactly the things that are happening now.

If we want to lower the immigration numbers, then we need to train people here to do the skilled jobs that currently need overseas workers to fill.
That will take time (at least Labour have said they want to do this, whether it happens remains to be seen) but it may also mean we have to be willing to pay more for goods and services (and companies have to be willing to pay their staff more).because the 'native' population is not going to accept the lower wages that immigrants often have to.
Blaming immigration for our woes is misplaced (not saying you were). It's choices made by politicians that have put us where we are.

Actually agree with a lot of that.

But people should not be in a position to turn down jobs. When I was starting out I did not of low pay work.

Basically a labourer at 16 and was often working bars in my mid 20s.

They should the British born not be able to turn down work because they don't like it. They should use the experience of that first job and not liking it to go and do better. By my mid 30s I had some pain in my body that I decided to buy a locksmith franchise.

If the British don't want to do the jobs they should not get benefits.

Immigration is a good thing, high skilled will always be needed and I imagine a certain amount of seasonal low skilled would always be needed.

Also think some of the counter people think anyone who has concerns about it is automatically racist. My experience is that is not true.

Was interesting that of all the news coverage that I saw no one was asking for the reasons behind the riots, just demonising them. Yet when other groups riot or protest we try to understand why.

Might not come through in my posts, but I'm actually proud of my working class roots but ashamed that the people I come from don't always work. But over the last 30 years the has been a trend if it ok to take the tinkle out of the working class.

I was the one who started the England thread in general section on here and it fcuks me off every time I see it that someone changed it to Eungerland. Which I view as a snidey way a lot of middle class people view football fans and how we speak. But hey its the English the one part of society we can constantly take the tinkle of. Funny though that so many want to move here.

Anyway end of rant haha

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

What I find funny is Brexit made it 'worse'. The other tension is that the economy feeds off immigration. Businesses need people to work etc. Yet the UK is overloaded. We have the same population as France, with half the space.

Part of the solution is generating more growth in the north of the UK. Population density in the north east and scotland is low.

I think we should lament the old system where we have less than a third of the immigration we have today. Where people from Poland etc came to the UK to work the jobs Brits didn't want, then got on a coach and went back again often. Or stayed, and contributed to our society and economy. Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, the UK should have done what Hungry or others do, and make people register when they move over, and send people back if they are not working. All legal under EU law.

The other option is to move to Frnace yourself!

Always get a warm welcome in France.

 

[glasgowspur]

It is not just the skilled jobs. In some ways skilled jobs are easier to address. Because there tends to be a more money on the table, you can attract people once trained. Or attract them to train up.

But unless we go backwards as a society, unless we stop educating and training people, we will continue to struggle to fill unskilled roles. No one wants them or their kids to do the dirtiest jobs on building sites. Or wait tables. Or clean up in care homes.

Atm immigration feeds our need for these roles. Previously the EU allowed us to access a massive labour pool to fill such roles. Which was also problamatic, it wasn't perfect. It boosted our economy but individuals who'd say drove a bus for a decade, and didn't get a pay rise becuase a Pole would come in and do the job if they didn't, wasn't really understood or appreciated. However, we had fruit pickers, builders etc

Now...immigration is feeding our economy and helping our aging society. But people are packed into the south of England, and we can't solve one 'problem' without impact on the other. Which do we prioritise the economy - which propvides money for the NHS, teachers wages etc - or less people in the UK? The true reason we have so much immigration is because no one has solved this dichotomy.

We've become very up ourselves.
I'm too good to do those jobs and my kids are very definitely too good to do those jobs, so let's bring in the poor and needy (and by implication not as good as me) from other countries to do those jobs.
And we then wonder why we are resented.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Actually agree with a lot of that.

But people should not be in a position to turn down jobs. When I was starting out I did not of low pay work.

Basically a labourer at 16 and was often working bars in my mid 20s.

On the pull?

They should the British born not be able to turn down work because they don't like it. They should use the experience of that first job and not liking it to go and do better. By my mid 30s I had some pain in my body that I decided to buy a locksmith franchise.

If the British don't want to do the jobs they should not get benefits.

I think this works if you invest in training, or give people opportunities to work within the community.

Immigration is a good thing, high skilled will always be needed and I imagine a certain amount of seasonal low skilled would always be needed.

Also think some of the counter people think anyone who has concerns about it is automatically racist. My experience is that is not true.

Was interesting that of all the news coverage that I saw no one was asking for the reasons behind the riots, just demonising them. Yet when other groups riot or protest we try to understand why.

Might not come through in my posts, but I'm actually proud of my working class roots but ashamed that the people I come from don't always work. But over the last 30 years the has been a trend if it ok to take the tinkle out of the working class.

I was the one who started the England thread in general section on here and it fcuks me off every time I see it that someone changed it to Eungerland. Which I view as a snidey way a lot of middle class people view football fans and how we speak. But hey its the English the one part of society we can constantly take the tinkle of. Funny though that so many want to move here.

Anyway end of rant haha

There is a lot to be proud of being English. But almost all of it is from yesterday. What we have left of note is a legacy of our past as a nation. We're not leading the way in much now. Not to diminish our tolerant, just, and open society. But we aren't the world leader we once were. And you know what? We're probably better off aligning ourselves with Scandinavian nations. Smaller countries who have high standards of living.

The EU was a way for the former European colonial powers to maintain some global strength. The founding nations of Europe lost their oversees nations, but clubbed together to rival the US and have a powerful position on the international stage. We're not part of that now, so being more like the Scandi nations that focus on themselves, and their quality of life makes sense.

Or we could do the opposite and address immigration by creating oversees UK enclaves. Essentially modern colonialism. Create spaces around the world with UK education, UK legal system, UK oppounities. Imagine if the UK could send representatives to stand in local elections, offering UK-like stability and education. Would populations vote for it?

 

[SpurMeUp]

We've become very up ourselves.
I'm too good to do those jobs and my kids are very definitely too good to do those jobs, so let's bring in the poor and needy (and by implication not as good as me) from other countries to do those jobs.
And we then wonder why we are resented.

We have. But it is also progress. I don't think we want to go back to people being poorer, which then creates the demand for any work. We have to innovate and go forward.

 

[glasgowspur]

We have. But it is also progress. I don't think we want to go back to people being poorer, which then creates the demand for any work. We have to innovate and go forward.

It's not about being poorer, it's about having respect for people who are willing to do a job that you aren't willing to do, and paying them accordingly.

 

[SpurMeUp]

It's not about being poorer, it's about having respect for people who are willing to do a job that you aren't willing to do, and paying them accordingly.

Even if it undermined the NHS? What would you need to pay people to get them working in care homes and as nurses? Few working in these areas at the moment started as settled Brits. Most originate from overseas. What would the pay need to be to attract natives? What would your taxes be? 65% of earnings?

 

[glasgowspur]

Even if it undermined the NHS? What would you need to pay people to get them working in care homes and as nurses? Few working in these areas at the moment started as settled Brits. Most originate from overseas. What would the pay need to be to attract natives? What would your taxes be? 65% of earnings?

Would it undermine the NHS though.
Higher wages, higher tax take.
Better health outcomes, less drain on the NHS, more taxation through fit to work population.
Ultimately it's a choice.
Where would you rather your tax pounds went, to pay Jamie oliver Child benefits for his five kids or to the care home attendant wiping your bum, to Ian mckellen in winter fuel payments or the nurse who is sticking a needle in your arm?

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

We've become very up ourselves.
I'm too good to do those jobs and my kids are very definitely too good to do those jobs, so let's bring in the poor and needy (and by implication not as good as me) from other countries to do those jobs.
And we then wonder why we are resented.

It's the same in most of affluent western societies. It's been happening for centuries around the world.

 

[thfcsteff]

Answers below.

Also think some of the counter people think anyone who has concerns about it is automatically racist. My experience is that is not true.

That's an assumption on your part.

Was interesting that of all the news coverage that I saw no one was asking for the reasons behind the riots, just demonising them. Yet when other groups riot or protest we try to understand why.

I've written repeatedly over time about what I feel the reasons are behind the rise of extremism everywhere. The recent riots? There's a dialectic. When false facts get pumped out and some people go blindly with those and start beating certain people up, threatening them, and smashing brick up, I think they should take responsibility for being 'played' regardless of their own (possibly desperate) situations and residual anger over their situations. Either that, or they believe in what they were doing and saying. In which case they are what they are.

Might not come through in my posts, but I'm actually proud of my working class roots but ashamed that the people I come from don't always work. But over the last 30 years the has been a trend if it ok to take the tinkle out of the working class.

You are not the only working class person here mate. I grew up on council estates and still rent my accomodations to this day. I live and work just outside what would be recognised as 'the normal system'. The working class hasn't had the tinkle taken out of it more than it's been systematically broken by decades of economic policy and underinvestment in national education which whispered things such as 'trickle down economics' and promised 'false gold' but actually fudged it. IMO.

I was the one who started the England thread in general section on here and it fcuks me off every time I see it that someone changed it to Eungerland. Which I view as a snidey way a lot of middle class people view football fans and how we speak. But hey its the English the one part of society we can constantly take the tinkle of. Funny though that so many want to move here.

Snobbery has always existed sadly, and yes, dialect is an easy target.

I think there is a great battle for English identity. People want to be able to celebrate being English without being written off as blinkered nationalists. I personally have always gone to England matches since the late 70s, and still go when I can to this day. I have England gear too. I am proud of the national team and support them loudly. I deplore how extremists have managed to skillfully hijack it and turned it into something it is not.

One part of this discussion which I think is interesting is what England is to people. A lot of my emotions and expectations are driven by a nostalgia which when examined is actually not very accurate. These days, I find that what I love about England (in no order) is -

the countryside
the North
East London
the train journeys
driving in the countryside
walking in central London in the evening
and (of course) Tottenham

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Answers below.



That's an assumption on your part.




I've written repeatedly over time about what I feel the reasons are behind the rise of extremism everywhere. The recent riots? There's a dialectic. When false facts get pumped out and some people go blindly with those and start beating certain people up, threatening them, and smashing brick up, I think they should take responsibility for being 'played' regardless of their own (possibly desperate) situations and residual anger over their situations. Either that, or they believe in what they were doing and saying. In which case they are what they are.





You are not the only working class person here mate. I grew up on council estates and still rent my accomodations to this day. I live and work just outside what would be recognised as 'the normal system'. The working class hasn't had the tinkle taken out of it more than it's been systematically broken by decades of economic policy and underinvestment in national education which whispered things such as 'trickle down economics' and promised 'false gold' but actually fudged it. IMO.




Snobbery has always existed sadly, and yes, dialect is an easy target.

I think there is a great battle for English identity. People want to be able to celebrate being English without being written off as blinkered nationalists. I personally have always gone to England matches since the late 70s, and still go when I can to this day. I have England gear too. I am proud of the national team and support them loudly. I deplore how extremists have managed to skillfully hijack it and turned it into something it is not.

One part of this discussion which I think is interesting is what England is to people. A lot of my emotions and expectations are driven by a nostalgia which when examined is actually not very accurate. These days, I find that what I love about England (in no order) is -

the countryside
the North
East London
the train journeys
driving in the countryside
walking in central London in the evening
and (of course) Tottenham

Steff I think you and I actually agree on a lot of stuff on this topic. I certainly agree with your remarks that the working class were deliberately broken up by the system.

You know what, I took part in it. I did up flats to sell on around 2002 onwards and I also had buy to let flats. I took part in one of the biggest things to hurt the working class. The property boom. I actually feel a bit of guilt about that. Worked my gonads off but I don't agree with the buy to let thing. Yet did it myself.

Agree the is a battle for English identity. Maybe why I don't like it when we are criticised so much. Im never standing up for Tommy Robinson and the like, but I am standing up for England and the English.

Immigration has done a lot for the country and will always be needed and we should always take genuine refugees fleeing for their lives. Its just numbers that are the issues.

Plus also how do we make the world more equal. Think things like the EU shafting the African farmers does not help. Im all for a fairer world. Think we only really disagree on how to get there.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Answers below.



That's an assumption on your part.




I've written repeatedly over time about what I feel the reasons are behind the rise of extremism everywhere. The recent riots? There's a dialectic. When false facts get pumped out and some people go blindly with those and start beating certain people up, threatening them, and smashing brick up, I think they should take responsibility for being 'played' regardless of their own (possibly desperate) situations and residual anger over their situations. Either that, or they believe in what they were doing and saying. In which case they are what they are.





You are not the only working class person here mate. I grew up on council estates and still rent my accomodations to this day. I live and work just outside what would be recognised as 'the normal system'. The working class hasn't had the tinkle taken out of it more than it's been systematically broken by decades of economic policy and underinvestment in national education which whispered things such as 'trickle down economics' and promised 'false gold' but actually fudged it. IMO.




Snobbery has always existed sadly, and yes, dialect is an easy target.

I think there is a great battle for English identity. People want to be able to celebrate being English without being written off as blinkered nationalists. I personally have always gone to England matches since the late 70s, and still go when I can to this day. I have England gear too. I am proud of the national team and support them loudly. I deplore how extremists have managed to skillfully hijack it and turned it into something it is not.

One part of this discussion which I think is interesting is what England is to people. A lot of my emotions and expectations are driven by a nostalgia which when examined is actually not very accurate. These days, I find that what I love about England (in no order) is -

the countryside
the North
East London
the train journeys
driving in the countryside
walking in central London in the evening
and (of course) Tottenham

Brilliant post! Especially the last paragraph. Feels like I wrote it myself. I’d like to add Cornwall and the Cotswolds to the list. The English countryside in particular is beautiful, particularly in the spring and summer.

 

[Rorschach]

A bit long but worth a read....

As a former IDF soldier and historian of genocide, I was deeply disturbed by my recent visit to Israel

The long read: This summer, one of my lectures was protested by far-right students. Their rhetoric brought to mind some of the darkest moments of 20th-century history – and overlapped with mainstream Israeli views to a shocking degree

www.theguardian.com

 

[thfcsteff]

Brilliant post! Especially the last paragraph. Feels like I wrote it myself. I’d like to add Cornwall and the Cotswolds to the list. The English countryside in particular is beautiful, particularly in the spring and summer.

Yes, the Cotswolds are magical. North Wales for me too...