Politics, politics, politics

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

And this is the crux of the issue that is stymieing our government from advancing. The EU are imploring the UK to put forward a vision. But 150 odd Torries share your view. The rest see that a hard brexit = big big job losses. Serious issues to contend with such as importing drugs, customs queues etc Not to mention a divided Ireland.

And so the government go backwards and forwards going nowhere.

Would you take losing car manufacturing, banking and many other jobs to the EU, a much poorer Britain with less to spend on education, health etc? At the same time no one has put forward how the UK will build up ex-EU trade, and why we are not engaged in this trade now. It's not the EUs fault, as Germany and others trade well with ex-EU as they are now.

Id take all of it. And then Id want to see us change, innovate, re-prioritise and grow again.

You see this is the crux of it with posters like you - the short term thinking.

The country doesnt want to get absorbed into an EU superstate, thats not just about money.

Look at business, successfull businessmen - many have gone bankrupt, had failures etc - and will tell you it was the best thing that ever happened.

We can do similar, short term pain - long term gain.

Shucks...it just shows what following an ideology over being rational can do.

You see this is where I struggle with you, I cant decide if you realise the irony in your posts, are simply trolling, or really are that ignorant.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Id take all of it. And then Id want to see us change, innovate, re-prioritise and grow again.

Please please please outline what it is that is stopping us from doing this now?

You see this is the crux of it with posters like you - the short term thinking.

The country doesnt want to get absorbed into an EU superstate, thats not just about money.

Look at business, successfull businessmen - many have gone bankrupt, had failures etc - and will tell you it was the best thing that ever happened.

We can do similar, short term pain - long term gain.

Short term or long term, I personally don't see the positives. The reasons why we joined the customs union are sound. They helped the UK grow. Track the economic data from the 70s and the UK has done well out the EU. Trade and open trade with neighbors creates wealth. What else are you going to put in place instead?

You see this is where I struggle with you, I cant decide if you realise the irony in your posts, are simply trolling, or really are that ignorant.

It's become a very binary discussion. With either Leave or Remain dominating individuals positions. They have become ideological positions. It's not about weighing up the facts and choosing what is best for the UK anymore. Its dogmatic, and that is dangerous.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

You still cant even accept that it is not a customs union, what is the use in even talking with you?

If it was simply the customs union we joined, Im sure we would be a lot happier and Brexit wouldnt have even come up on the agenda.

Im going to put you on ignore, because it is just too frustrating to try and deal with you in this thread. Its a shame, I value your contribution elsewhere, but this is doing my head in.

Given how youve positioned yourself/framed this debate Im sure you will see it as some sort of victory over me, go for it - I couldnt care less.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Germany, Japan, India, France and Brazil are the countries of similar size economies to us. Only two of them are in such all-consuming regional blocs; the rest are more globally-orientated

Does depend on the make up of those economies though. Easier to call the tune if you resource rich or a manufacturing powehouse.

 

[SpurMeUp]

You still cant even accept that it is not a customs union, what is the use in even talking with you?

If it was simply the customs union we joined, Im sure we would be a lot happier and Brexit wouldnt have even come up on the agenda.

Im going to put you on ignore, because it is just too frustrating to try and deal with you in this thread. Its a shame, I value your contribution elsewhere, but this is doing my head in.

Given how youve positioned yourself/framed this debate Im sure you will see it as some sort of victory over me, go for it - I couldnt care less.

It's been a pleasure.

Even if there are other elements to the EU, you have to accept the EU has a customs union. Or are you saying there is no customs union? Baffled.

At its heart the EU is a customs union.

Does depend on the make up of those economies though. Easier to call the tune if you resource rich or a manufacturing powehouse.

Pre-vote we had larger GDP than France, but now we've slipped back mainly because of the value of the pound. France now has a larger economy than the UK. If we Remained we'd probably overtake again.

 

[DTA]

I am under no pretence that we are a commonwealth, world controlling player.

And yes, as Ive stated again and again - Id expect compromise on any deal. Thats the very nature of it, isnt it?

I appreciate better deals are out there for the bigger players, and we are leaving one of them. Its not like it isnt obvious, is it?

So far as smaller nations go I think we are somewhat unique, we are relatively tiny - and yet have a very large economy. Something of an oddity in those terms, Id be interested to see just how short we come up in trade negotiations going on. Its a curiosity.

This is a key point that I, at least have with with Brexit. What is our vision? How can I back something that I have no idea what it is.

If it is a free trade for all no regulation (regulation is the difficult part) distopia.
fudge no.

If it's getting bent over by the US which will eventually see the complete privatisation of the NHS amongst many many other ills.
fudge NO.

If it's a reconnecting with the commonwealth. Building a better more fair society

Then I'm listening.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Pre-vote we had larger GDP than France, but now we've slipped back mainly because of the value of the pound. France now has a larger economy than the UK. If we Remained we'd probably overtake again.

Not sure the relevance of a flip flopping economy comparison with France has to do with my reply to GB post?

Short term or long term, I personally don't see the positives. The reasons why we joined the customs union are sound. They helped the UK grow. Track the economic data from the 70s and the UK has done well out the EU. Trade and open trade with neighbors creates wealth. What else are you going to put in place instead?

Yes it does Spain
Yes it does Italy
Yes it does Portugal
Yes it does Greece

You are only as strong as your weakest link #Karius

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

This is a key point that I, at least have with with Brexit. What is our vision? How can I back something that I have no idea what it is.

If it is a free trade for all no regulation (regulation is the difficult part) distopia.
fudge no.

If it's getting bent over by the US which will eventually see the complete privatisation of the NHS amongst many many other ills.
fudge NO.

If it's a reconnecting with the commonwealth. Building a better more fair society

Then I'm listening.

I agree, the last option sounds brilliant to me.

Im not smart enough to have a specific plan in place, I cant spell it all out for you.

However, if we can become a globally facing country, dealing with everyone, equal rights on immigration (and immigration designed to work best for the UK), if we can take a leaf out of gutterboys book and focus more on people and communities than bottom line, then Ill be really happy.

There is a spectrum between abject poverty and wealth, I would happily be technically poorer for a richer life and outlook.

 

[DTA]

I agree, the last option sounds brilliant to me.

Im not smart enough to have a specific plan in place, I cant spell it all out for you.

However, if we can become a globally facing country, dealing with everyone, equal rights on immigration (and immigration designed to work best for the UK), if we can take a leaf out of gutterboys book and focus more on people and communities than bottom line, then Ill be really happy.

There is a spectrum between abject poverty and wealth, I would happily be technically poorer for a richer life and outlook.

That's the thing dude. There is no plan in place and there never was. All we get is Brexit means Brexit. What the flying fudge is that?

I moan about Brexitiers not because I think the EU is utopia. But because there is no viable plan of what we intend to do next.

Now you and I could come up with a plan, it may the best plan ever. But unless we are suddenly parashooted into power... It's meaningless.

What is the plan of those that are driving Brexit? Let me see it let me evaluate it then make a decision. Triggering A50 without a vision is incompetence boarding on treason.

You want us remainers on side (and you need us as well as we need you) then go beyond the meaningless platitudes and empty rethoric give us something real and that we can back.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

That's the thing dude. There is no plan in place and there never was. All we get is Brexit means Brexit. What the flying fudge is that?

I moan about Brexitiers not because I think the EU is utopia. But because there is no viable plan of what we intend to do next.

Now you and I could come up with a plan, it may the best plan ever. But unless we are suddenly parashooted into power... It's meaningless.

What is the plan of those that are driving Brexit? Let me see it let me evaluate it then make a decision. Triggering A50 without a vision is incompetence boarding on treason.

You want us remainers on side (and you need us as well as we need you) then go beyond the meaningless platitudes and empty rethoric give us something real and that we can back.

Again, I cant really argue.

Those in charge are clearly incompetent, and - clearly - the very epitome of the self serving scum that people think politicians are.

I dont expect them to get anything right, really.

That said, Im looking past the immediate. We come out, hard Brexit style, and the brick hits the fan. I get it - you dont like the sound of that - and at this point it seems more likely than not.

However, what then?

Well thats the interesting bit, and IMO the bit where the powers that be will have miss calculated.

As stated above, I think there is real appetite for change, and once people start to stand up with an actual idea and direction, they will gain quick support.

Just look at Corbyn. I dont like him, I wont vote for him - but I can see his appeal. He has conviction, he has a vision of what he thinks things should be, and he has some relatively radical ideas on how to achieve them - and look at the support he has gained despite half his party trying to oust him.

A few more coming up through the ranks like that and I can see some real prospects on the horizon.

 

[Gutter Boy]

That's the thing dude. There is no plan in place and there never was. All we get is Brexit means Brexit. What the flying fudge is that?

I moan about Brexitiers not because I think the EU is utopia. But because there is no viable plan of what we intend to do next.

Now you and I could come up with a plan, it may the best plan ever. But unless we are suddenly parashooted into power... It's meaningless.

What is the plan of those that are driving Brexit? Let me see it let me evaluate it then make a decision. Triggering A50 without a vision is incompetence boarding on treason.

You want us remainers on side (and you need us as well as we need you) then go beyond the meaningless platitudes and empty rethoric give us something real and that we can back.

That was always going to be the case though because Brexit was an alliance of 'anything other than the EU'. Nothing in British politics, probably not even the war, managed to unite left and right in such a way, the village green shires with the industrial heartlands. It was a vote for all other possibilities but the current track.

But the good thing is that with repatriated powers, we can try out some of the alternatives and eventually settle on the right one. So we might get a few months of Mogg in the run-up to the 2022 election, but then 5 years of full blown Corbyn's socialist utopia.

 

[DTA]

Again, I cant really argue.

Those in charge are clearly incompetent, and - clearly - the very epitome of the self serving scum that people think politicians are.

I dont expect them to get anything right, really.

That said, Im looking past the immediate. We come out, hard Brexit style, and the brick hits the fan. I get it - you dont like the sound of that - and at this point it seems more likely than not.

However, what then?

Well thats the interesting bit, and IMO the bit where the powers that be will have miss calculated.

As stated above, I think there is real appetite for change, and once people start to stand up with an actual idea and direction, they will gain quick support.

Just look at Corbyn. I dont like him, I wont vote for him - but I can see his appeal. He has conviction, he has a vision of what he thinks things should be, and he has some relatively radical ideas on how to achieve them - and look at the support he has gained despite half his party trying to oust him.

A few more coming up through the ranks like that and I can see some real prospects on the horizon.

But by saying that you are doing the same thing.

You are saying let's go for the extreme version of Brexit... Maximum damage to the economy short to medium term... But then maybe someone somewhere can save us.

That's not a plan that is closer anarchy theory.

Wanting change for change sake is idiotic... We need to know what that change is.

 

[monkeybarry]

Again, I cant really argue.

Those in charge are clearly incompetent, and - clearly - the very epitome of the self serving scum that people think politicians are.

I dont expect them to get anything right, really.

That said, Im looking past the immediate. We come out, hard Brexit style, and the brick hits the fan. I get it - you dont like the sound of that - and at this point it seems more likely than not.

However, what then?

Well thats the interesting bit, and IMO the bit where the powers that be will have miss calculated.

As stated above, I think there is real appetite for change, and once people start to stand up with an actual idea and direction, they will gain quick support.

Just look at Corbyn. I dont like him, I wont vote for him - but I can see his appeal. He has conviction, he has a vision of what he thinks things should be, and he has some relatively radical ideas on how to achieve them - and look at the support he has gained despite half his party trying to oust him.

A few more coming up through the ranks like that and I can see some real prospects on the horizon.

So your plan is to burn it down and then build it up again?!

Somewhat risky and irresponsible.

And I would say naïve, the evil self serving Tories that you mention above will have already tied up everything of worth and value.
Voting Brexit was a vote for Tory Brexit. And that's what is unfolding, a wealth and power grab.

 

[DTA]

That was always going to be the case though because Brexit was an alliance of 'anything other than the EU'. Nothing in British politics, probably not even the war, managed to unite left and right in such a way, the village green shires with the industrial heartlands. It was a vote for all other possibilities but the current track.

But the good thing is that with repatriated powers, we can try out some of the alternatives and eventually settle on the right one. So we might get a few months of Mogg in the run-up to the 2022 election, but then 5 years of full blown Corbyn's socialist utopia.

But that is why it was and is folly?

Is full blown fascism better than the EU? Is Stalin's communism? Of course not

Any thing but the EU is ludicrously stupid as a position.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

But by saying that you are doing the same thing.

You are saying let's go for the extreme version of Brexit... Maximum damage to the economy short to medium term... But then maybe someone somewhere can save us.

That's not a plan that is closer anarchy theory.

Wanting change for change sake is idiotic... We need to know what that change is.

I dont want anarchy. I do want change. Staying in leads only one way - something Ive no interest in, leaving offers numerous possibilities.

Ive long argued we should be able to operate independently and still trade with the EU, I still really see no reason why we cant - other than the EU. That would be ideal, a fundamentally close relationship, in both trade and security. It makes good sense.

My wanting the more extreme version of Brexit is only really in response to the EU trying to box us into a Norway type deal where nothing changes except the fact we dont even get a say in things. Its completely obvious why the EU would want that, honestly thats probably a major improvement as far as they are concerned - but it wont work for us at all.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

So your plan is to burn it down and then build it up again?!

Somewhat risky and irresponsible.

And I would say naïve, the evil self serving Tories that you mention above will have already tied up everything of worth and value.
Voting Brexit was a vote for Tory Brexit. And that's what is unfolding, a wealth and power grab.

Not my plan, as much as a possible necessity.

As I said, Id be much happier if we could leave and maintain close relations. That that seems impossible leads to one of two things - hamstrung lame duck membership, or something much more extreme.

Longer term, as painful as it may be, the latter would be preferable for me in those circumstances.

 

[Gutter Boy]

But that is why it was and is folly?

Is full blown fascism better than the EU? Is Stalin's communism? Of course not

Any thing but the EU is ludicrously stupid as a position.

It's no different to the 'anything but Tory' arrangements you get between local parties during elections.

Sometimes opposition to something is a much stronger unifier than belief in something.

I would though say there was a more specific theme that unified leavers - localism/opposition to globalisation

 

[DTA]

Brexit was an alliance of 'anything other than the EU

leaving offers numerous possibilities.

Including many that will leave us in a worse position than we are now.

No thanks.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Including many that will leave us in a worse position than we are now.

No thanks.

Brexit has always been about the red pill. Seeing where the rabbit hole goes, rather than staying in slothful ignorance

 

[milo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1014156050730274817