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Politics, politics, politics

the dza said:
I take your point, but I think if a hard-brexit was about breaking the establishment, then the likes of The Sun newspaper wouldn't be so vociferous in their support of it. This is more like the establishment fighting amongst themselves for how to shape the future of the country. I don't think it's going to all come crashing down and be built up again, that's not the plan of Banks, Rees-Mogg etc anyway.
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I think there is what they think, and what is likely.

Lets be honest - the government/establishment miss-calculating the feeling of the people would come as a surprise to no one.

I think there is a growing movement in the population for change. Look at the support for Corbyn, for UKIP (previously), the Brexit vote...

People want something different, and Im becoming ever more convinced the people will be underestimated in the years to come.

If politicians rise representing proper change, I believe they will get a huge amount of support - and Rees-Mogg is not going to end up winning in that situation.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Right, so both parties have an opening stance - and one parties opening position was in direct contradiction of the others point of view. No hint of compromise then or since.

Despite, for example, FoM not being an issue for the Canada deal. So they are prepared to compromise, but just not with us.
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It's natural though. Empires will come to all sort of arrangements to expand, but fight to the death when they start to crumble.
 
milo said:
We could already do that.

Damage to manufacturing has not been due to EU membership. Quite the opposite, many companies base themselves here because of our access to the single market. That is under threat if if go cannot move freely between the single market and UK.

The government's own analysis shows that other markets cannot make up for the lost trade with the EU.
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Are they not a few morsels though from the same companies that already killed off our domestic industries and then exported the majority of the jobs to lower wage parts of the world?

I know Thatcher is as responsible as the EU, but its kind of looking for freedom in the arms of those that enslave you.

While 44% of our exports do go to the EU (cf 56% RoW), 3/4s is domestic economy, so we're only talking 44% of 1/4.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
They havent budged on anything, and they have basically bullied them, weakening an already flustered UK side.




You see, this is the thing.

You lot bang on about the EU as some sort of liberal eutopia, all about the little guy etc. Categorically NOT a protectionist bloc, a political behemouth or anything. Its all sunshine and rainbows.

And yet, someone wants to leave the club and its rules, but still remain on terms - and the EU has been anything but sunshine and rainbows.

They have set about punishing us (and yes, I know incompetence on our side doesnt help).

All this cake and eat it gonads from their side - we want to trade, and only trade, why is that such taboo?


"Oh but that means others will want a good deal and leave"

What does that tell you? Utopia my ass.

This should be simple. It should be easy. If not free trade, then some sort of fee to facilitate or something like that - business keeps turning and money keeps flowing on either side.

They have that same sort of agreement with Canada, have a different sort of agreement with Ukraine, so its not like there isnt precedent.

As Ive said, since the EU has shown itself to be so petty and punitive Im actually more resolved to leave it, who even wants to be a part of an institution like that?

Another referendum Ill be voting out/hard brexit/anything but the EUs bitch.
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So you will at least conceded that the negotiations were not equal or easy. We haven't held equal cards as many argued we would?

The EU is for the EU - whats so hard to understand about that? Do you really think they should change their fundamental setup to accommodate an ex-member? Seems deluded, and just arguing a point rather than stepping back and seeing the reality. A reality that was obvious from the get go.
 
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nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I think there is what they think, and what is likely.

Lets be honest - the government/establishment miss-calculating the feeling of the people would come as a surprise to no one.

I think there is a growing movement in the population for change. Look at the support for Corbyn, for UKIP (previously), the Brexit vote...

People want something different, and Im becoming ever more convinced the people will be underestimated in the years to come.

If politicians rise representing proper change, I believe they will get a huge amount of support - and Rees-Mogg is not going to end up winning in that situation.
Click to expand...

The assassin never carries the crown. The Tories will repatriate the powers and then lose the 2022 general election on the issue of what to do with them.
 
SpurMeUp said:
So you will at least conceded that the negotiations were not equal or easy. We haven't held equal cards as many argued we would?

The EU is for the EU - whats so hard to understand about that? Do you really think they should change their fundamental setup to accommodate an ex-member? Seems deluded, and just arguing a point rather than stepping back and seeing the reality. A reality that was obvious from the get go.
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Still an argument to be won for you, isnt it? Score points etc?

The reality is that we can all be winners. Or we can just try and fudge each other over.

Ever the optimist I hoped for the former, as it happens the EU showed its colours and went for the latter.

You are the one under the delusion the EU is about trade. Surely, if that was even close to true, they would be prepared to compromise in the interest in ongoing trade with a uniquely positioned partner?

And yet, it is their political side that has won out in that situation, punishing us for deeming to want another way, and using us as a cautionary tale to any other country who might dare to think similarly.
 
milo said:
They set out a range of options at the beginning and asked us to choose one as a basis to begin negotiations with the specifics to follow. Fifteen months later we are still negotiating with ourselves

This situation has come as a direct result of the government triggering Article 50 before we had a clear idea of what we wanted and had done our preparation.
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OUR government can not decide what Brexit should look like. All they have is a deluded utopia vision where we get all the benefits and no drawbacks. That's the EUs fault? What would you suggest as a realistic trade arrangement @nayimfromthehalfwayline and @gutterboy ? How can you get around the reality that trade will suffer whichever option you choose? A customs union is pro trade with our neighbours, and its the optimal trade setup. How important is money vs whether a court no one cares about makes decisions on trade in Brussels? How important is it to end FoM when we need immigrants and 50% are ex EU anyway? etc etc

the dza said:
The EU would be fine with us having a Canada style deal. Our government don't want that, as I'm guessing they figure that sort of deal in place of EU membership would be too damaging to the economy. If Canada wanted all the benefits of EU membership, the EU would not have given them that. There are obligations as well as benefits in any kind of union.

I don't know how many people think the EU is perfect or a utopia, I certainly don't. I don't think freedom of movement is without it's problems and I do think it's unfair when put alongside what immigrants from other parts of the world have to go through to be here, even if they are married to a British citizen. But I find the problems associated with the EU more tolerable than our country being sold down the river to US corporate interests and becoming a low regulation, low workers rights economy. And that is what the architects of Brexit are about, along with some of their puppets in the cabinet.

You don't want us to be the EU's bitch, fair enough. But we are going to be aligned closely with someone, because all countries of our size are part of some sort of bloc. Norway and Switzerland have different setups, but are still closely aligned with the EU because it makes sense. I don't want this country becoming the bitch of corporate America. I'd rather be aligned with the EU, for all it's faults.
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Exactly. It's ironic, as part of the union we call the shots. A major part of the EU which is a global dictator or terms. As a Norway, a Canada, a Ukraine whatever we are in the periphery and we are that much more the EUs 'bitch'.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Still an argument to be won for you, isnt it? Score points etc?

The reality is that we can all be winners. Or we can just try and fudge each other over.

Ever the optimist I hoped for the former, as it happens the EU showed its colours and went for the latter.

You are the one under the delusion the EU is about trade. Surely, if that was even close to true, they would be prepared to compromise in the interest in ongoing trade with a uniquely positioned partner?

And yet, it is their political side that has won out in that situation, punishing us for deeming to want another way, and using us as a cautionary tale to any other country who might dare to think similarly.
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It is still an argument to be won, as we're probably a long way from Brexit. We can all be winners. Probably by working closely with our neighbours and not putting in place barriers to trade. It's easy to paint a picture of an evil other who 'punishes' us. That's not the image of a powerful independent Britain that we were promised. I thought we didn't need the EU? Now Leave supporters are all about how 'it would have worked, but the EU punished us' which is naturally balls.
 
SpurMeUp said:
OUR government can not decide what Brexit should look like. All they have is a deluded utopia vision where we get all the benefits and no drawbacks. That's the EUs fault? What would you suggest as a realistic trade arrangement @nayimfromthehalfwayline and @gutterboy ? How can you get around the reality that trade will suffer whichever option you choose? A customs union is pro trade with our neighbours, and its the optimal trade setup. How important is money vs whether a court no one cares about makes decisions on trade in Brussels? How important is it to end FoM when we need immigrants and 50% are ex EU anyway? etc etc
Click to expand...

As with most things with you, this has been done to death - and yet you just want to circle back around again.

Many options have been discussed, being part of the EU is not the only single way we can have a thriving economy.

It requires a little give and take, on both sides, and a desire to actually have a well balanced arrangement.

The UK doesnt want to be told what to do, it doesnt want unrestricted FoM - but it does want to trade. There is plenty there to work with if the EU so chose (as they have with other nations). They are choosing not to.


SpurMeUp said:
Exactly. It's ironic, as part of the union we call the shots. A major part of the EU which is a global dictator or terms. As a Norway, a Canada, a Ukraine whatever we are in the periphery and we are that much more the EUs 'bitch'.
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Hence Id rather be completely out than compromised in such a way


SpurMeUp said:
It is still an argument to be won, as we're probably a long way from Brexit. We can all be winners. Probably by working closely with our neighbours and not putting in place barriers to trade. It's easy to paint a picture of an evil other who 'punishes' us. That's not the image of a powerful independent Britain. I thought we didn't need the EU? Now Leave supporters are all about how 'it would have worked, but the EU punished us' which is naturally balls.
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You are talking balls. If you had just come into the thread it wouldnt be so frustrating, but youve been here all along - and yet post as if you havent read any of it.

Not one leave supporter, that I have seen has ever said we dont need any relationship with the EU. Has never said we dont need trade with them, or immigration. Its all a big straw man youve constructed to balance your own rather dogmatic views.

Scara, for example - has been arguing vehmently there should be no barriers to trade, its precisely why he wants to leave.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Genuinely interested, you'd take less sovregnity. Be a rule taker and not maker. With continued FoM?

Isn't that like now, but worse from a Leave perspective?
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Instead of rushing to get a reply in, try reading the post.

My point is exactly that.

I would rather be out of the EU entirely than be stuck half out and worse off.

If the Tories go full hard Brexit, we will have the power to do as we please, then down the line real leaders can make the most of it.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
They havent budged on anything, and they have basically bullied them, weakening an already flustered UK side.




You see, this is the thing.

You lot bang on about the EU as some sort of liberal eutopia, all about the little guy etc. Categorically NOT a protectionist bloc, a political behemouth or anything. Its all sunshine and rainbows.

And yet, someone wants to leave the club and its rules, but still remain on terms - and the EU has been anything but sunshine and rainbows.

They have set about punishing us (and yes, I know incompetence on our side doesnt help).

All this cake and eat it gonads from their side - we want to trade, and only trade, why is that such taboo?


"Oh but that means others will want a good deal and leave"

What does that tell you? Utopia my ass.

This should be simple. It should be easy. If not free trade, then some sort of fee to facilitate or something like that - business keeps turning and money keeps flowing on either side.

They have that same sort of agreement with Canada, have a different sort of agreement with Ukraine, so its not like there isnt precedent.

As Ive said, since the EU has shown itself to be so petty and punitive Im actually more resolved to leave it, who even wants to be a part of an institution like that?

Another referendum Ill be voting out/hard brexit/anything but the EUs bitch.
Click to expand...

Others have already answered this but I will give it a go as well.

I don't think the EU is utopia. I see its faults many misunderstood and exaggerated by the Brexitiers... But nevertheless it has faults.

What's more in part it is protectionist. That's not all it is, but it is protectionist. IE the combined strength of of its members means it will get fair or more than likely favourable terms for any agreements it reaches with any other party. That's one of the main reasons for being in the bloc...

That means that if EU - US deal was to happen or EU - China deal was to happen, we wouldnt have to eat loads of brick to make it happen - there would be an equal amount of brick eaten on all sides... Or maybe even because of the economic strength of the EU we might have to eat less brick.

What that means for example in less crude terms, is we can say no thanks to the animal abuses of the American farm industry or the dodgy IP practices of Chinese industry (just as two simple examples). And still get a deal done... And even if we can't get deals done which happens a lot with with the EU, we are still rich enough within the bloc for that not to matter for us.

That absolutely reverses if it is the UK alone doing those deals with those same countries. We will have to eat a lot of brick, or try to make deals with smaller countries (which if Brexit is to happen, is absolutely what we should be doing).

I don't know if SUEZ canel was mentioned in this thread. But if not it would be good for a few of you Brexiters to go and read up about it. That event culminated in the realization that European (but British mostly) power had faded sharply on the world stage... The EU grew as a way to keep some of that power and influence and not fade in to obscurity in the face of the then growing ubiquity of the US. in face of many new grand players the EU is even more important.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Instead of rushing to get a reply in, try reading the post.

My point is exactly that.

I would rather be out of the EU entirely than be stuck half out and worse off.

If the Tories go full hard Brexit, we will have the power to do as we please, then down the line real leaders can make the most of it.
Click to expand...

And this is the crux of the issue that is stymieing our government from advancing. The EU are imploring the UK to put forward a vision. But 150 odd Torries share your view. The rest see that a hard brexit = big big job losses. Serious issues to contend with such as importing drugs, customs queues etc Not to mention a divided Ireland.

And so the government go backwards and forwards going nowhere.

Would you take losing car manufacturing, banking and many other jobs to the EU, a much poorer Britain with less to spend on education, health etc? At the same time no one has put forward how the UK will build up ex-EU trade, and why we are not engaged in this trade now. It's not the EUs fault, as Germany and others trade well with ex-EU as they are now.

Shucks...it just shows what following an ideology over being rational can do.
 
The skill in any deal brokering is not to concentrate on what you need, it's to find out (in depth) what the other side need. If you can calculate what they are not telling you, or that which makes them uncomfortable, you can get somewhere.

More calculate their red lines rather than bang on about ours.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
As with most things with you, this has been done to death - and yet you just want to circle back around again.

Many options have been discussed, being part of the EU is not the only single way we can have a thriving economy.

It requires a little give and take, on both sides, and a desire to actually have a well balanced arrangement.

The UK doesnt want to be told what to do, it doesnt want unrestricted FoM - but it does want to trade. There is plenty there to work with if the EU so chose (as they have with other nations). They are choosing not to.




Hence Id rather be completely out than compromised in such a way




You are talking balls. If you had just come into the thread it wouldnt be so frustrating, but youve been here all along - and yet post as if you havent read any of it.

Not one leave supporter, that I have seen has ever said we dont need any relationship with the EU. Has never said we dont need trade with them, or immigration. Its all a big straw man youve constructed to balance your own rather dogmatic views.

Scara, for example - has been arguing vehmently there should be no barriers to trade, its precisely why he wants to leave.
Click to expand...

I have been arguing vehemently that Beyonce should come and give me head... Doesnt mean it's going to happen.
 
DTA said:
Others have already answered this but I will give it a go as well.

I don't think the EU is utopia. I see its faults many misunderstood and exaggerated by the Brexitiers... But nevertheless it has faults.

What's more in part it is protectionist. That's not all it is, but it is protectionist. IE the combined strength of of its members means it will get fair or more than likely favourable terms for any agreements it reaches with any other party. That's one of the main reasons for being in the bloc...

That means that if EU - US deal was to happen or EU - China deal was to happen, we wouldnt have to eat loads of brick to make it happen - there would be an equal amount of brick eaten on all sides... Or maybe even because of the economic strength of the EU we might have to eat less brick.

What that means for example in less crude terms, is we can say no thanks to the animal abuses of the American farm industry or the dodgy IP practices of Chinese industry (just as two simple examples). And still get a deal done... And even if we can't get deals done which happens a lot with with the EU, we are still rich enough within the bloc for that not to matter for us.

That absolutely reverses if it is the UK alone doing those deals with those same countries. We will have to eat a lot of brick, or try to make deals with smaller countries (which if Brexit is to happen, is absolutely what we should be doing).

I don't know if SUEZ canel was mentioned in this thread. But if not it would be good for a few of you Brexiters to go and read up about it. That event culminated in the realization that European (but British mostly) power had faded sharply on the world stage... The EU grew as a way to keep some of that power and influence and not fade in to obscurity in the face of the then growing ubiquity of the US. in face of many new grand players the EU is even more important.
Click to expand...

I am under no pretence that we are a commonwealth, world controlling player.

And yes, as Ive stated again and again - Id expect compromise on any deal. Thats the very nature of it, isnt it?

I appreciate better deals are out there for the bigger players, and we are leaving one of them. Its not like it isnt obvious, is it?

So far as smaller nations go I think we are somewhat unique, we are relatively tiny - and yet have a very large economy. Something of an oddity in those terms, Id be interested to see just how short we come up in trade negotiations going on. Its a curiosity.
 
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