SpurMeUp
Les Howe
All ex-soviet nations. They have a special setup/dispensation as the US and EU tried to draw them away from Russia's control.
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Politics, politics, politics
- Thread starter markysimmo
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All ex-soviet nations. They have a special setup/dispensation as the US and EU tried to draw them away from Russia's control.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
What is seriously funny, is that people think a club should change its rules for an ex-member. If it did all the members would say we want the same setup and the EU would cease. How can anyone lament the EU sticking to its setup? Its like asking the UK to change its constitution for New Zealand to exit the commonwealth. Bizarre that people are unable to understand. Or they just want a convenient other to blame? But then isn't that the crux of Brexit.
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SpurMeUp
Les Howe
How would you sell the UK having less sovereignty under the Norway model? Who thinks its a good idea to have all the 'downsides' of the EU - free movement, paying into the EU, EU court - with none of the good sides - setting international trade regulations to aid our exporters. For example, the highly successful British pharmaceutical companies have more or less dictated EU trade regulations on drugs. The EU regulator was based in London and it allowed British pharma companies to compete toe to toe with US pharmaceuticals.
So the logical progression of pursuing the Norway model is that we're better off as we are, than reducing our sovereignty further.
The hardline all or nothing Brexiteers will actually bring about remain imo. As a soft Norway option is not worthwhile. Its palatable to Remainers, but abhorrent for Leavers as its the same but a little worse than now.
There was a good graphic that (I think) @milo posted awhile ago and I think there are some selling points on it. I think I saved it to my computer, if I find it, I will post it here (I found it):
The main selling point, of course, is that we honour the referendum result as written -- we leave the EU. That's what that was on the ballot. Remainers will moan that we might as well have stayed in. Leavers will moan that we haven't properly left. The perfect compromise, nobody is happy. How British of us.
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The Norway model will leave us worse off than we are now I agree.
But Brexit in any form will leave us worse off. And Norway model less so.
The will of the people said we leave. They didn't say how... So even though the Norway model will probably suit none of us. It is a way of accept of the result of the refendum but not alienating the remainers.
But if the Brexitiers want another ref along the lines of:
1)Hard Brexitiers 2) Norway Model 3) remain
Then yeah ok we can go for that as well.
But Brexit in any form will leave us worse off. And Norway model less so.
The will of the people said we leave. They didn't say how... So even though the Norway model will probably suit none of us. It is a way of accept of the result of the refendum but not alienating the remainers.
But if the Brexitiers want another ref along the lines of:
1)Hard Brexitiers 2) Norway Model 3) remain
Then yeah ok we can go for that as well.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
In the association agreements, there's freedom of goods, capital and services, but no freedom of movement.
Barnier's fampus powerpoint actually suggests that the Ukraine model is on the table for them, as a half-way between Norway and Canada
The only additional border that would be needed would be for EU26 citizens leaving Belfast and Dublin air/sea ports
Barnier's fampus powerpoint actually suggests that the Ukraine model is on the table for them, as a half-way between Norway and Canada
The only additional border that would be needed would be for EU26 citizens leaving Belfast and Dublin air/sea ports
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
But that sums up the EU. It's become a powerful independent 3rd party, detached from the interests of its constituent members. You can't make the EU better by allowing it to become shallower, because then all the countries would want that? That's the thing Britain has been banging its head on the wall about for the last 25 years
milo
Jack L. Jones
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Apparently the association agreements cover 98-99% of business, with a few tariffs remaining on agriculture and metal, neither of which I think we are particularly big exporters of
If the EJC was rolled back for just being about technical decisions relating to the trade of goods, I could see that as being tolerable. It's where it has supremacy over matters relating to citizens and government that it is so unpalatable
If the EJC was rolled back for just being about technical decisions relating to the trade of goods, I could see that as being tolerable. It's where it has supremacy over matters relating to citizens and government that it is so unpalatable
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
FoM, restrictions on RoW trade and a budget contribution as big as EU membership have always been the more fundamental problems with that
The thing we need is something that lets the ECJ apply to just the 13% of our trade that is with the EU, rather than the 87% that is domestic and RoW
The thing we need is something that lets the ECJ apply to just the 13% of our trade that is with the EU, rather than the 87% that is domestic and RoW
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
They havent budged on anything, and they have basically bullied them, weakening an already flustered UK side.
You see, this is the thing.
You lot bang on about the EU as some sort of liberal eutopia, all about the little guy etc. Categorically NOT a protectionist bloc, a political behemouth or anything. Its all sunshine and rainbows.
And yet, someone wants to leave the club and its rules, but still remain on terms - and the EU has been anything but sunshine and rainbows.
They have set about punishing us (and yes, I know incompetence on our side doesnt help).
All this cake and eat it gonads from their side - we want to trade, and only trade, why is that such taboo?
"Oh but that means others will want a good deal and leave"
What does that tell you? Utopia my ass.
This should be simple. It should be easy. If not free trade, then some sort of fee to facilitate or something like that - business keeps turning and money keeps flowing on either side.
They have that same sort of agreement with Canada, have a different sort of agreement with Ukraine, so its not like there isnt precedent.
As Ive said, since the EU has shown itself to be so petty and punitive Im actually more resolved to leave it, who even wants to be a part of an institution like that?
Another referendum Ill be voting out/hard brexit/anything but the EUs bitch.
You see, this is the thing.
You lot bang on about the EU as some sort of liberal eutopia, all about the little guy etc. Categorically NOT a protectionist bloc, a political behemouth or anything. Its all sunshine and rainbows.
And yet, someone wants to leave the club and its rules, but still remain on terms - and the EU has been anything but sunshine and rainbows.
They have set about punishing us (and yes, I know incompetence on our side doesnt help).
All this cake and eat it gonads from their side - we want to trade, and only trade, why is that such taboo?
"Oh but that means others will want a good deal and leave"
What does that tell you? Utopia my ass.
This should be simple. It should be easy. If not free trade, then some sort of fee to facilitate or something like that - business keeps turning and money keeps flowing on either side.
They have that same sort of agreement with Canada, have a different sort of agreement with Ukraine, so its not like there isnt precedent.
As Ive said, since the EU has shown itself to be so petty and punitive Im actually more resolved to leave it, who even wants to be a part of an institution like that?
Another referendum Ill be voting out/hard brexit/anything but the EUs bitch.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Again we need that flexibility where 13% of our economy (that trades with the EU) has to comply and does so to the EU's satisfaction, whereas the rest doesn't need to
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I don't see why. You could have one production line building diesel cars in cms for the EU, and another building petrol cars in inches for the US. That kind of thing
Our manufacturing and agriculture sectors have also been pretty decimated over the past 40 years - there's not much left of them. Brexit should be a massive opportunity to rebalance our economy and rebuild these.
Our manufacturing and agriculture sectors have also been pretty decimated over the past 40 years - there's not much left of them. Brexit should be a massive opportunity to rebalance our economy and rebuild these.
The EU would be fine with us having a Canada style deal. Our government don't want that, as I'm guessing they figure that sort of deal in place of EU membership would be too damaging to the economy. If Canada wanted all the benefits of EU membership, the EU would not have given them that. There are obligations as well as benefits in any kind of union.
I don't know how many people think the EU is perfect or a utopia, I certainly don't. I don't think freedom of movement is without it's problems and I do think it's unfair when put alongside what immigrants from other parts of the world have to go through to be here, even if they are married to a British citizen. But I find the problems associated with the EU more tolerable than our country being sold down the river to US corporate interests and becoming a low regulation, low workers rights economy. And that is what the architects of Brexit are about, along with some of their puppets in the cabinet.
You don't want us to be the EU's bitch, fair enough. But we are going to be aligned closely with someone, because all countries of our size are part of some sort of bloc. Norway and Switzerland have different setups, but are still closely aligned with the EU because it makes sense. I don't want this country becoming the bitch of corporate America. I'd rather be aligned with the EU, for all it's faults.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
None of which would work for us, which they knew.
On the face of it they appear reasonable, when you look at it they were not at all.
On the face of it they appear reasonable, when you look at it they were not at all.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
The point is not the Canada deal specifically, rather that the EU can be flexible when it chooses.
I really dont know where things will end up post Brexit, but Im more and more inclined to really break the establishment and build it again than I am to just end up in the EU in all but name.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Right, so both parties have an opening stance - and one parties opening position was in direct contradiction of the others point of view. No hint of compromise then or since.
Despite, for example, FoM not being an issue for the Canada deal. So they are prepared to compromise, but just not with us.
Despite, for example, FoM not being an issue for the Canada deal. So they are prepared to compromise, but just not with us.
I take your point, but I think if a hard-brexit was about breaking the establishment, then the likes of The Sun newspaper wouldn't be so vociferous in their support of it. This is more like the establishment fighting amongst themselves for how to shape the future of the country. I don't think it's going to all come crashing down and be built up again, that's not the plan of Banks, Rees-Mogg etc anyway.