Politics, politics, politics

[Robspur12]

If you don't support nationalisation, then you cannot really describe yourself as a leftist in my opinion. The basic tenet of left wing politics is economic, that is to say nationalisation and redistributive economics. I'll trump them with Rudd and Bozo Boris. Rudd, she almost made Nuttall look human.

I consider myself centre left.

I am a supporter of good public services. Health care, housing, and education. Which is why I never vote Tory. I want to encourage people to better themselves such that they are not reliant on financial help from the state. People who can afford to pay for their social care should.

That said I don't think all services need to be state run. But where they are in private hands the regulators need to have more teeth to hold companies that are not delivering to account. Again the Tory model fails here. It is happy to privatize but at the same time weakens the regulators.

The answer though is not necessarily to waste money on buying back franchises. But to have better service specification between the state and private companies and a strong regulator.

I don't have any ideological objections to people being Wealthy and Labour needs to be careful not to portray itself as anti aspiration.

Left and right politics is based on same tired rhetoric. For the Tories it's people on benefits are scroungers and for the current Labour Party it's that the wealthy are tax dodgers or don't pay enough.

 

[scaramanga]

R-U-S-X was agreeing with me Scara. You misinterpreted what I said. I wasn't saying that conservatives were making that claim. I was saying that some people defined themselves as being on the left in those circumstances. This is something that I disagree with. They are no more of the left than you or Danish are. I say that knowing that you both support anti prejudicial causes.

Then you have my apologies that was my misunderstanding

 

[Parklaner81]

I don't have any ideological objections to people being Wealthy and Labour needs to be careful not to portray itself as anti aspiration.

Left and right politics is based on same tired rhetoric. For the Tories it's people on benefits are scroungers and for the current Labour Party it's that the wealthy are tax dodgers or don't pay enough.

I tend to agree with a lot of this - a fair & balanced post. I think the ship has sailed on the bolded bit though (under their current leadership)...

 

[scaramanga]

t

Rubbish. If there is a market opportunity and money to be paid they will stay, or other companies will move in to take their place. Was there a capital flight before the Tories made the previous reduction? Of course not. This is typical Tory hysteria, oh no, don't vote Labour the sky will fall in if you do.

I'm not saying they won't sell to the UK, just that they'll do it from elsewhere.

And yes, there was a lot of capital investment going overseas (especially to Central/Eastern Europe). There is still some now, but I can guarantee you that the lower taxes and wages are, the less will go overseas.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I don't have any ideological objections to people being Wealthy and Labour needs to be careful not to portray itself as anti aspiration.

Left and right politics is based on same tired rhetoric. For the Tories it's people on benefits are scroungers and for the current Labour Party it's that the wealthy are tax dodgers or don't pay enough.

That's why Miliband lost 2015. The shires, many of which went for Blair, all voted blue

My take is that the Tories are evil, while Labour are incompetent. A general two-term rotation of the two keeps things about on track. Tories fix the economy, Labour redistribute it.

At this point in time we need more hard-nosed discipline - to achieve Brexit. I'd be much more up for a nationalising/spending government in 2022 when that's all sorted.

 

[Dicko]

Considering how unpopular both the Conservatives and Labour have become over recent years,* How come there hasn't been many new/breakaway parties created. Imagine how different it could be if there was some real competition.

I live in Belgium at the moment and there are about 10+ different parties to choose from.



*Or have they always been this unpopular?

 

[r-u-s-x]

Considering how unpopular both the Conservatives and Labour have become over recent years,* How come there hasn't been many new/breakaway parties created. Imagine how different it could be if there was some real competition.

I live in Belgium at the moment and there are about 10+ different parties to choose from.



*Or have they always been this unpopular?

First Past the post is not really democratic - by design it consolidates power in a couple of big parties. however it does mean that there are less coalition governments and less chance of a "nasty party" having influence.

You have multiple parties of the same persuasion (lefties or right) you split the vote, ex 3 parties all getting roughly 1/3 of the vote, 2 are right leaning but the left one wins 34% of the vote they win even though 66% of the electorate were anti Left. you get the point.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Essentially the two parties are coalitions themselves. Conservatives cover libertarians, paternalists and liberal centrists, while Labour cover socialists, social democrats and liberal centrists.

All that is really excluded are the far right (UKIP) and far left (Socialist Workers/Momentum)

There are battles for control within them, e.g. May is paternalist compared to Cameron's liberal centrist; or Corbyn is socialist compared to Miliband's social democrats or Blair's liberal centrist.

It's why Cameron once said it was easier to form a government with Nick Clegg (a centrist from another party) than with Bill Cash (a libertarian from his own party).

 

[JerusalemMan]

Anyone see Farron's interview with Andrew Neill? It seemed an elongated suicide attempt, done very publicly.

 

[r-u-s-x01]

Essentially the two parties are coalitions themselves. Conservatives cover libertarians, paternalists and liberal centrists, while Labour cover socialists, social democrats and liberal centrists.

All that is really excluded are the far right (UKIP) and far left (Socialist Workers/Momentum)

There are battles for control within them, e.g. May is paternalist compared to Cameron's liberal centrist; or Corbyn is socialist compared to Miliband's social democrats or Blair's liberal centrist.

It's why Cameron once said it was easier to form a government with Nick Clegg (a centrist from another party) than with Bill Cash (a libertarian from his own party).

Seems to be that the party rather than the electorate largely decide upon the make up of the "coalition"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-pol...te-selection-how-political-parties-select-mps

 

[Robspur12]

Anyone see Farron's interview with Andrew Neill? It seemed an elongated suicide attempt, done very publicly.

Awful man and he's done nothing to seriously revive the party's fortunes.

 

[Gutter Boy]

The local associations have quite a lot of autonomy though. The main diversity problems with MPs is that the blue-rise phalanx are charmed by nice young plummy men - and hence why central offices try to impose things like all female lists.

MPs do therefore tend to reflect their communities - liberal centrists in London/Bristol/home counties, socialists and social democrats in industrial areas, libertarians and paternalists in the shires.

Also as there's generally not deselection (though Labour are toying with it), MPs can have entered the house under any party leader for the last 25 years. This means the current leader isn't able to flood the benches with loyalists.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Awful man and he's done nothing to seriously revive the party's fortunes.

Agree. The Lib Dems shot themselves in the foot by electing their sandal-wearing loony a few weeks before Labour did the same. If they'd held the centre ground and gone with Norman Lamb, they'd be right back in it now.

 

[the dza]

Agree. The Lib Dems shot themselves in the foot by electing their sandal-wearing loony a few weeks before Labour did the same. If they'd held the centre ground and gone with Norman Lamb, they'd be right back in it now.

Not sure about that. They were in the centre at the last election and were killed because nobody trusts them. Now they have tried to promote themselves as the party of remainers, but that message doesn't cut through for the same reason. Farron doesn't help, but their problems go much deeper than him. Coalition with the Tories has set them back a long way and it will take time to rebuild.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Not sure about that. They were in the centre at the last election and were killed because nobody trusts them. Now they have tried to promote themselves as the party of remainers, but that message doesn't cut through for the same reason. Farron doesn't help, but their problems go much deeper than him. Coalition with the Tories has set them back a long way and it will take time to rebuild.

Their problem is they try to be two parties in two different parts of the country. Where they compete with Labour, they go left wing. Where they compete with the Tories (especially the south-west), they go slightly centre-right (orange book/classical liberalism).

The coalition destroyed them with the first group, but with the second group there was a big chance to pick up the Cameron/Blair vote as the two big parties moved towards their fringes with May/Corbyn.

 

[parklane1]

Not sure about that. They were in the centre at the last election and were killed because nobody trusts them. Now they have tried to promote themselves as the party of remainers, but that message doesn't cut through for the same reason. Farron doesn't help, but their problems go much deeper than him. Coalition with the Tories has set them back a long way and it will take time to rebuild.

I agree, that's killed them as a serious party to most. Its ironic that by going into the coalition not only saved David ( flip,flop)
Cemerons job it also put a nail in their coffin if not for ever then for a very long time.

 

[scaramanga]

Not sure about that. They were in the centre at the last election and were killed because nobody trusts them. Now they have tried to promote themselves as the party of remainers, but that message doesn't cut through for the same reason. Farron doesn't help, but their problems go much deeper than him. Coalition with the Tories has set them back a long way and it will take time to rebuild.

I agree, that's killed them as a serious party to most. Its ironic that by going into the coalition not only saved David ( flip,flop)
Cemerons job it also put a nail in their coffin if not for ever then for a very long time.

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the perfect example of an echo chamber in full flow.

The coalition didn't kill the Lib Dem's chances with anyone but those with an irrational hatred of anything Conservative (upper case C intentional). Outside of that bubble, there's no dislike of them at all, they're just short on talent.

 

[the dza]

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the perfect example of an echo chamber in full flow.

The coalition didn't kill the Lib Dem's chances with anyone but those with an irrational hatred of anything Conservative (upper case C intentional). Outside of that bubble, there's no dislike of them at all, they're just short on talent.

Nope. They were a solid 3rd party going into 2010 -- funny how they became "short on talent" right after enabling a Tory government. I voted for Kennedy and Clegg but after the coalition, I'd never vote Lib Dem again. Talk about "echo chambers" all you want, but when a lot of voters start echoing the same opinion and vote accordingly, it counts for something -- in the case of the Lib Dems, a collapse in their vote.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I lost all respect(not that I had much for them anyway) when they demanded a referendum on the voting system in exchange for helping the boundary changes go through the house. When they lost said referendum they welched on their deal. That is not a sign of a grown up party.

 

[parklane1]

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the perfect example of an echo chamber in full flow.

The coalition didn't kill the Lib Dem's chances with anyone but those with an irrational hatred of anything Conservative (upper case C intentional). Outside of that bubble, there's no dislike of them at all, they're just short on talent.

Sorry mate but that is gonads ( imo).