Politics, politics, politics

[glasgowspur]

ok

surely some do or it wouldn't be a thing though right?

A vocal minority.

 

[glasgowspur]

It's up to them. National self determination is the right to be governed by your own people - but each group has to define its own 'own people'. If enough Bavarians or Lombarians want their own country, then good luck to them. They shouldn't be suppressed like the Kosovans, Kurds, Basques and Catalans have been.

After our experiences at the end of empire, I have faith that we'll be mature enough let Scotland and Northern Ireland go when the time is right for them (probably within the next 10-15 years).

Yes, you are correct, it's up to them. And Scots made that choice 2 years ago. There's little appetite for this vote or a change.

 

[Gutter Boy]

ok

surely some do or it wouldn't be a thing though right?

It varies between 40-45%.

But their reliance on (the ever declining) north sea oil and gas bounty, the issue of Orkney and Shetland (who have never seen themselves as part of Scotland; they are Norwegian islands that got transferred in a gambling debt), the EU's vindictiveness towards secessionism, and referendum fatigue, are all things that means a decisive swing won't happen for a number of years yet.

 

[glasgowspur]

It varies between 40-45%.

But their reliance on (the ever declining) north sea oil and gas bounty, the issue of Orkney and Shetland (who have never seen themselves as part of Scotland; they are Norwegian islands that got transferred in a gambling debt), the EU's vindictiveness towards secessionism, and referendum fatigue, are all things that means a decisive swing won't happen for a number of years yet.

All of which are negatives for independence, yet you're advocating it?

 

[Gutter Boy]

All of which are negatives for independence, yet you're advocating it?

I think it's a good idea. But it's why I think there's sufficient risk aversion, meaning the majority wont be achieved for a while yet. Personally i'm more ideological and think freedom/sovereignty is always worth it.

I think free Scotland will be better born in 10-15 years time - after the EU has collapsed and something better is being created in its place, and NI has a catholic majority.

 

[glasgowspur]

I think it's a good idea. But it's why I think there's sufficient risk aversion, meaning the majority wont be achieved for a while yet. Personally i'm more ideological and think freedom/sovereignty is always worth it.

I think free Scotland will be better born in 10-15 years time - after the EU has collapsed and something better is being created in its place, and NI has a catholic majority.

Not convinced about either. The Catholic majority in NI have same pretty basic freedoms at the moment that they may lose should they unite. Not to mention an unstable economic situation.

 

[the dza]

Surely the SNP wouldn't want to trigger another Indy Ref unless they thought they have a great chance of winning?

 

[glasgowspur]

Surely the SNP wouldn't want to trigger another Indy Ref unless they thought they have a great chance of winning?

The rank and file are deluded and pressing sturgeon to go for it.
They have two chances, May plays silly buggers and causes enough outrage to sway the dumb ones. Or voter apathy not bringing out no voters

 

[scaramanga]

None of that is a sound logical reason for leaving.
Liverpool is just as different from Devon as your examples.

Scotland gets Liverpool in the divorce. No takesies backsies.

 

[scaramanga]

you are right but if we don't grant them one it sort of leaves us at odds with our position on Falklands and Gibraltar of self determination. This was in the SNP manifesto and the Tories are adamant that to go against a manifesto pledge is undemocratic (when it suits)

It's probably quite important not to have a third world country on our border though.

I can't imagine us supporting the self determination of Gibraltar and the Falklands if doing so meant a refugee crisis in the North of England.

 

[glasgowspur]

Scotland gets Liverpool in the divorce. No takesies backsies.

Now that's just cruel.

 

[r-u-s-x01]

It's probably quite important not to have a third world country on our border though.

I can't imagine us supporting the self determination of Gibraltar and the Falklands if doing so meant a refugee crisis in the North of England.

Yes but we won't be able to tell the Spanish and Argentina that we support self determination and will have to change a decades old bargaining position

 

[scaramanga]

Yes but we won't be able to tell the Spanish and Argentina that we support self determination and will have to change a decades old bargaining position

That's OK, we can just tell them to go fudge themselves.

 

[the dza]

Lords amendments to Article 50 bill voted down in the commons, so no guarantees given to EU Citizens residing here and no possibility of Parliament vetoing the final deal for leaving the EU.

To be honest, I think the government should call a General Election (the Fixed Term Parliament Act can be got around). That way, each party can lay out their own priorities and red lines on EU negotiation and we can all vote accordingly. Then whoever gets elected has a free hand to conduct the negotiations as they wish and they also totally own it if it all goes tits up.

 

[r-u-s-x01]

Lords amendments to Article 50 bill voted down in the commons, so no guarantees given to EU Citizens residing here and no possibility of Parliament vetoing the final deal for leaving the EU.

To be honest, I think the government should call a General Election (the Fixed Term Parliament Act can be got around). That way, each party can lay out their own priorities and red lines on EU negotiation and we can all vote accordingly. Then whoever gets elected has a free hand to conduct the negotiations as they wish and they also totally own it if it all goes tits up.

This is sensible, think it will go against the outcome I would want but does seem like the fairest way forwards.

 

[r-u-s-x01]

That's OK, we can just tell them to go fudge themselves.

Too true, we probably will do this.

 

[glasgowspur]

Too true, we probably will do this.

As we should.

 

[r-u-s-x01]

As we should.

But we do lose the moral high ground we have been claiming though, if suddenly decide self determination is not as important as we said it was (and I believe enshrined in UN charters) for the past 20 years.

 

[glasgowspur]

But we do lose the moral high ground we have been claiming though, if suddenly decide self determination is not as important as we said it was (and I believe enshrined in UN charters) for the past 20 years.

Why? Scotland determined that it wanted to stay part of the UK.

 

[r-u-s-x01]

Why? Scotland determined that it wanted to stay part of the UK.

Was there not another election in the meantime where the party with the most votes had in its manifesto that Brexit will likely call a referendum?

Got no strong opinion here but if I voted to stay in the UK within the EU, would want another vote on the UK outside, especially as a key argument was if you leave the union you leave the EU. Not sure if that message was key North of the boarder but from the outside in certainly seemed that way