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Politics, politics, politics

scaramanga said:
I may have completely misunderstood the law, but don't they get a referendum when we say they get a referendum?
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Depends who you mean by "we".
If you mean the UK govt, then yes. If you mean the English then no.

She is gambling on so many fronts here, and only needs one to come up.
If Westminster rebuff her it will a rallying cry to some many idiots they will win handsomely. No one cuts their nose off to spite their face better than the Scots.
 
Gutter Boy said:
The Scottish Government can publish a bill, but it needs the consent of the UK government to be made legally binding

As a supporter of Scottish independence and potential future dual citizen, I think Sturgeon is stupid doing this now. The EU will completely torpedo it by insisting Scotland will have to adopt Schengen, the Euro and most of the UK's budgetary commitments, because they are petrified of Catalonia and Flanders. England and Wales might also plant the seed that they will have to take Northern Ireland in the split too. The SNP just need to get their head down and govern for a decade, to show they are capable of running a country, and not just being a party of protest.
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If Scotland did leave the UK, maybe they would go for a Norway deal with the EU, rather than full membership.
 
Gutter Boy said:
The Scottish Government can publish a bill, but it needs the consent of the UK government to be made legally binding

As a supporter of Scottish independence and potential future dual citizen, I think Sturgeon is stupid doing this now. The EU will completely torpedo it by insisting Scotland will have to adopt Schengen, the Euro and most of the UK's budgetary commitments, because they are petrified of Catalonia and Flanders. England and Wales might also plant the seed that they will have to take Northern Ireland in the split too. The SNP just need to get their head down and govern for a decade, to show they are capable of running a country, and not just being a party of protest.
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Why do you support independence?
There is no logical argument for it. None.
 
Gutter Boy said:
The EU will completely torpedo it by insisting Scotland will have to adopt Schengen, the Euro and most of the UK's budgetary commitments, because they are petrified of Catalonia and Flanders.
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Already started:

"Euro Commission spokesman @MargSchinas says Scotland will have to apply to join the EU, not automatically remain member"
 
glasgowspur said:
Why do you support independence?
There is no logical argument for it. None.
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National self determination

I'm about half Scottish and spend a lot of time up there. But it's as different a country as Ireland or Canada or Australia. They have a right to choose their own course. I think Anglo-Scottish relations will also improve a lot when we become neighbours, rather than this sort of landlord-lodger situation we have now.
 
glasgowspur said:
Why do you support independence?
There is no logical argument for it. None.
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Surely every Englishman should support the full independence of all of the provinces, countries and principalities?

Step 2: Start policing the North/South divide
Step 3: Profit.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...dum-saying-hes-opposed-politics-live#comments

May accuses Sturgeon of offering Scotland 'more uncertainty and division'
This is what Theresa May said in her statement to broadcasters:

As we negotiate to leave the European Union, I want to negotiate an agreement that is going to work for the whole of the United Kingdom and that includes the Scottish people. That is why we have been working closely with the devolved administrations. We have been listening to their proposals and recognising the many areas of common ground we have, such as protecting workers’ rights and our security from crime and terrorism.


The tunnel vision that the SNP has shown today is deeply regrettable. It sets Scotland on a course for more uncertainty and division, creating huge uncertainty. And this is at a time when the evidence is that the Scottish people, the majority of the Scottish people, do not want a second independence referendum.


So, instead of playing politics with the future of our country, the Scottish government should focus on delivering good government and public services for the people of Scotland. Politics is not a game.

_______________________________________________________

Did May say this with a straight face? Staggering hypocrisy, perhaps the rest of us will get to visit the alternate universe she lives in. What a qunt.
 
Gutter Boy said:
National self determination

I'm about half Scottish and spend a lot of time up there. But it's as different a country as Ireland or Canada or Australia. They have a right to choose their own course. I think Anglo-Scottish relations will also improve a lot when we become neighbours, rather than this sort of landlord-lodger situation we have now.
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None of that is a sound logical reason for leaving.
Liverpool is just as different from Devon as your examples.
 
Out of the EU, UK breaking up, bullsh1t artist marketing tool in the White House who's surrounded by right-wing nutters. It's madness really.
 
glasgowspur said:
None of that is a sound logical reason for leaving.
Liverpool is just as different from Devon as your examples.
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That would be regional self determination.

Scotland was an independent country for 1000 years (4 times longer than America has so far existed).
 
the dza said:
That's the next step with all this 'logic', England splitting back into 8 kingdoms or whatever it was.
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England was never really 7 fixed kingdoms - that was a 16th century invention. The states were fluid between the end of Roman rule and the ninth century, but the big 3 ones (Northumbria, Mercia and Wessex) largely alternated hegemony over the others and there was usually one Saxon overlord (the Bretwalda).
 
scaramanga said:
I may have completely misunderstood the law, but don't they get a referendum when we say they get a referendum?
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you are right but if we don't grant them one it sort of leaves us at odds with our position on Falklands and Gibraltar of self determination. This was in the SNP manifesto and the Tories are adamant that to go against a manifesto pledge is undemocratic (when it suits)
 
glasgowspur said:
And?
Germany and Italy among many others are fairly recently constructed countries.
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It's up to them. National self determination is the right to be governed by your own people - but each group has to define its own 'own people'. If enough Bavarians or Lombarians want their own country, then good luck to them. They shouldn't be suppressed like the Kosovans, Kurds, Basques and Catalans have been.

After our experiences at the end of empire, I have faith that we'll be mature enough let Scotland and Northern Ireland go when the time is right for them (probably within the next 10-15 years).
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
I dont like Trump but I see the other two as positives and a step towards a brighter future.
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My ideal would be a Europe of 70-80 smaller nation states, rather than the imperial hangovers like Britain and Spain. Linked by economic co-operation and cultural ties, but no political integration or apparatus. Like seemed possible before Maastricht created a monster.
 
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