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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

So you're happy that it's ok to force people to give evidence against themselves?

It doesn't matter if people are guilty or not, they're all entitled to a fair trial. No trial can be fair if a suspect doesn't have a right of silence. That's been a basic part of just about any set of human rights for centuries.
I don’t know enough about these cases tbh but from what little I do know it seems like the people involved appealed to the echr and the echr rejected their appeals on the basis they were groundless, not sure that’s the same as forcing them to admit their guilt
 
Murdoch never invented right wing politics but him and his rags all over the globe have polluted the anglosphere, and consequently the rest of the world, for decades.

I know so many otherwise smart people who believe in Murdoch propagated tropes - even when it goes against the grain of the rest of their personality and beliefs.

Heck, if I dig deep enough I’m sure there’s bound to be some I believe in as well.

When a single individual dominates the worlds media so much you can’t help but absorb them, even unconsciously.

It shapes beliefs, shapes people, shapes nations.

There is so much orchestrated propaganda within his papers, and it comes from the top. So you have a 90-year-old influencing public perception. The anti-Labour and Starmer stories are daily. As were the anti-EU stories. Without doubt the influence is worth a few percentage points at elections. Worth far more than the millions spent on advertising. Would we have left the EU without Murdoch specifically targeting the EU (for decades)? Because he had no influence over the EU. In nation states wannabee leaders court him.

I don't think you can overestimate the effects from his media intervention. Blair managed to break the cycle by courting him. A PM beholden to a media tycoon. It's telling that we have not had any other Labour leaders elected since 1974 (before i was born). Is that correct? Not backed by Murdoch and you carry a handicap. Akin to having a million pound a day advertising campaign against you.
 
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I don’t know enough about these cases tbh but from what little I do know it seems like the people involved appealed to the echr and the echr rejected their appeals on the basis they were groundless, not sure that’s the same as forcing them to admit their guilt
The short version is that the police asked them to tell them who was driving when a car was caught on a camera. They refused on the grounds that refusal to incriminate oneself has been a basic tenet of our legal system since the Magna Carta.

Judges in the UK mumbled some fudge about how speeding is dangerous and therefore police should be able to force self-incrimination (yet murderers and rapists can't). ECHR agreed with some other fudge about drivers having a responsibility to blah blah blah.

It's complete flimflam and shows that the system only exists to protect those who the courts feel it's politically expedient to protect.
 
Which parts specifically?
I think independence from our government is a very good thing given how corrupt and incompetent our government is
The parts stopping our govt running the immigration system the way they want to is the most prominent example.

If we don't like that govt we can vote them out. How do we vote out the ECHR?
 
The parts stopping our govt running the immigration system the way they want to is the most prominent example.

If we don't like that govt we can vote them out. How do we vote out the ECHR?

If given free rein this government would run the immigration system in a way that…

<GODWINS LAW ALERT>
 
just another notch, slowly boiling the frog
If there were even a fraction of a chance of a Conservative victory at the next election, then you might nearly have a point.

Fact is that people have got fed up of earning their own money and want to spend everyone else's for a while - so they'll be voting in a Labour govt next time.
 
If there were even a fraction of a chance of a Conservative victory at the next election, then you might nearly have a point.

Fact is that people have got fed up of earning their own money and want to spend everyone else's for a while - so they'll be voting in a Labour govt next time.
I think it’s more that people are fed up with a government that is so fundamentally inept at everything except corruption and fraud. if you want to talk about living off other peoples money there are no better examples than this government and their cronies. Eg nadine dorries, Michelle none, did Harding etc etc . The names I’ve mentioned are merely the tip of the ice berg. Look at those people who provided the barges or the asylum seeker hotels, ripping off the tax payer to the max with the aid or their Tory chums.
 
If there were even a fraction of a chance of a Conservative victory at the next election, then you might nearly have a point.

Fact is that people have got fed up of earning their own money and want to spend everyone else's for a while - so they'll be voting in a Labour govt next time.

the problem is, there is a worrying number of people who think this authoritarian government is an acceptable way forward

that they will (should) get their arses kicked at the next general isn’t enough
 
If there were even a fraction of a chance of a Conservative victory at the next election, then you might nearly have a point.

Fact is that people have got fed up of earning their own money and want to spend everyone else's for a while - so they'll be voting in a Labour govt next time.

People have got fed up or society decaying as it’s been completely malnourished from any serious investment in public infrastructure for a long time now.

It’s been 13 years since the Tory’s told us to tighten our belts for the greater good of our future and in that time the country hasn’t made the grand recovery that was promised then. In recent years the state of the economy has only got worse.

If 13 years isn’t long enough how long must we wait? 25 years? 50?

Neoliberalism is a good idea. But it doesn’t work in practice! ;)
 
It doesn't matter what the rights themselves are, the concept of a supranational body to make judgement on them is the issue.

That's especially so when that body does nothing to protect people from actual, real breaches of those rights. See below:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jun/29/transport.eu
Supranational issues require supranational bodies. There is a good article in the FT today about how the UK leaving the EU, and of course cross border threats such as the pandemic for example, have just pushed EU countries into closer cooperation across the board. Yes, sometimes a case can be made for overreach, an intrusion too far into national competencies, but the ECHR hardly falls into that category. The UK's gradual descent into illiberalism and its constant eroding of its own citizen's rights will not be corrected by this government. Would you trust them to enforce those same ECHR rights? fudge no. They will not police themselves, just you, unfortunately.
 
Supranational issues require supranational bodies. There is a good article in the FT today about how the UK leaving the EU, and of course cross border threats such as the pandemic for example, have just pushed EU countries into closer cooperation across the board. Yes, sometimes a case can be made for overreach, an intrusion too far into national competencies, but the ECHR hardly falls into that category. The UK's gradual descent into illiberalism and its constant eroding of its own citizen's rights will not be corrected by this government. Would you trust them to enforce those same ECHR rights? fudge no. They will not police themselves, just you, unfortunately.

You still need accountability, when something holds so much power. And a way to be able to get rid of them when they go wayward. It's an essential of any democracy.

Any body that holds socio-economic or political power has to be able to answer these 5 questions:
- What power have you got?
- Where did you get it from?
- In whose interests do you use it?
- To whom are you accountable?
- How do we get rid of you?
 
You still need accountability, when something holds so much power. And a way to be able to get rid of them when they go wayward. It's an essential of any democracy.

Any body that holds socio-economic or political power has to be able to answer these 5 questions:
- What power have you got?
- Where did you get it from?
- In whose interests do you use it?
- To whom are you accountable?
- How do we get rid of you?
Yes power corrupts and the wrong path may be taken, but a body such as the ECHR which is fundamentally about protecting rights and has an altruistic mission is not likely to stray far from the path. I agree power should always come from the people and there should be mechanisms of control and accountability, but let's cut to the chase. Why would the UK leave this organisation, one it played a central part in forming, if not to weaken those rights enshrined by its conventions? The sovereign tea argument for this is just a laser for gullible cats to chase. Don't be fooled by it. This is about watered-down rights for greedy clams to exploit.
 
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the problem is, there is a worrying number of people who think this authoritarian government is an acceptable way forward

that they will (should) get their arses kicked at the next general isn’t enough
Careful what you wish for. The last Labour government wanted mandatory ID cards and massively increased CCTV surveillance.
 
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