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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

DTA said:
I’m almost sure that we will join the EU again.

It will probably be in ten years or so. When we are desperate unfortunately, when the economic calamity of Brexit has ravaged us and we have the choice of swallowing our pride and asking to be let back in or fading in to obscurity.

In fact we would have to prove ourselves before being let back in. We would have to prove that we would be reliable and stable.

it will mean that we will have to take euro and everything else that goes with it. There would be no rebate. there will be no special deal like we had before.

This is what the Brexiteers have brought down upon us.

Brexit has undoubtedly diminished our country BUT I could understand it if it was for a clear purpose. With everybody pulling in the same direction or even just all the brexiteers pulling in the same direction.

if for instance it was agreed that Brexit was about trying to re-ignite the commonwealth and build a massive worldwide trading block that can compete with America, china and the EU. I could get behind that, even if it failed, it is worth taking that risk for maybe.

Or even if Brexit was to speed up transition to a technology based green economy, which would see the Uk at the forefront of the world in this sector.

but it wasn’t those things, it was just so BOJO could play priminister the predatory capitalists to exploit the Uk population without the safe guards of the EU. The currency traders to short the pound. Etc etc

all the while the poor are even poorer. The middle class are having their wealth syphoned away. And the whole of the Uk is degraded… makes me sad man.
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I seem to remember that everyone was told that brexit would cause a recession. Yet they still voted for it. There was always going to be short term pain.
 
SpurMeUp said:
You haven't been to the Tottenham store. They lock the customer toilets and close all the manned checkouts by 8 as its so ghetto :)

There is a more ethical way to eat meat, building on the foundation of our forefathers. @Gutter Boy I am a big fan of venison. Our nomadic ancestors would follow deer herds. We know what prehistoric Brits did, mainly from the heaps of rubbish they threw over their shoulders. We would use the whole animal. The sinew for rope, bows or stitching clothes made of the hide. I am far from perfect, but I'll try to buy a chicken that has moved about and had some kind of life, and I'll use it all. The carcass will make chicken soup. I don't eat meat every day, and try to make it something a bit more special.
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I appreciate what you’re saying. I’ll never agree there’s an ethical way to kill someone who doesn’t want to die when there are other options available. Our ancestors also committed rape with impunity, doesn’t make it right ;) just because we did something hundreds, even thousands of years ago, it shouldn’t be the bar of where our morality lies now.
 
DTA said:
I respect the sacrifice vegans and vegetarians make on ethical grounds.

But at the same time.

I eat meat, and I don’t believe it is ethically wrong to do so.

but where I think we will agree is that the state of animal welfare is far to low already, and Brexit will make this worse… which is horrific.
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It’s not a sacrifice for me, the range of food I have in my diet has increased ten-fold!

I’ve witnessed first-hand the standards and environment of the most highly approved factory farms and slaughterhouses. It’s horrific. If factory farms and slaughterhouses had windows, the world would go plant-based very quickly.

And to keep it on topic, totally agree regarding letting go of EU standards. If we end up going down the American route….urgh. It’s no surprise that animal ag are amongst the biggest lobbyists to their governments. Despite the dairy industry failing, they are subsidised to the billions by gov.
 
AuroRaman said:
It’s not a sacrifice for me, the range of food I have in my diet has increased ten-fold!

I’ve witnessed first-hand the standards and environment of the most highly approved factory farms and slaughterhouses. It’s horrific. If factory farms and slaughterhouses had windows, the world would go plant-based very quickly.

And to keep it on topic, totally agree regarding letting go of EU standards. If we end up going down the American route….urgh. It’s no surprise that animal ag are amongst the biggest lobbyists to their governments. Despite the dairy industry failing, they are subsidised to the billions by gov.
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Letting go of eu standards? We raised eu standards.
 
AuroRaman said:
I appreciate what you’re saying. I’ll never agree there’s an ethical way to kill someone who doesn’t want to die when there are other options available. Our ancestors also committed rape with impunity, doesn’t make it right ;) just because we did something hundreds, even thousands of years ago, it shouldn’t be the bar of where our morality lies now.
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What about other animals? Do these moral codes apply to carnivores? My cat for example :)
 
AuroRaman said:
Of course not. Cats are obligate carnivores. Im also not going to scold a lion for refusing to eat their broccoli.
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When a lion kills, the prey also doesn’t wish to die, but in this instance it’s ethical?

I rescued a baby bird from my cats jaws last spring. Cats are callous, for sport they will play with creatures and leave them half dead, not always eating them.

I’m not sure our ancestors committed rape with impunity either. I’m pretty certain even prehistoric societies had codes of living.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
When a lion kills, the prey also doesn’t wish to die, but in this instance it’s ethical?

I rescued a baby bird from my cats jaws last spring. Cats are callous, for sport they will play with creatures and leave them half dead, not always eating them.

I’m not sure our ancestors committed rape with impunity either. I’m pretty certain even prehistoric societies had codes of living.
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The golden rule, treat others how you wish to be treated. Predates the abrahamic religions.
 
SpurMeUp said:
When a lion kills, the prey also doesn’t wish to die, but in this instance it’s ethical?

I rescued a baby bird from my cats jaws last spring. Cats are callous, for sport they will play with creatures and leave them half dead, not always eating them.

I’m not sure our ancestors committed rape with impunity either. I’m pretty certain even prehistoric societies had codes of living.
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Archaelogical evidence tends to show prehistoric societies were relatively peaceful, other than at exceptional times when resources became particularly scarce
 
SpurMeUp said:
When a lion kills, the prey also doesn’t wish to die, but in this instance it’s ethical?

I rescued a baby bird from my cats jaws last spring. Cats are callous, for sport they will play with creatures and leave them half dead, not always eating them.

I’m not sure our ancestors committed rape with impunity either. I’m pretty certain even prehistoric societies had codes of living.
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A lion would die if it didn’t hunt and eat meat. I have the option of choosing from a multitude of non-meat/dairy food sources.

if a cat was in an empty room with a live chicken and an apple, it’s natural instinct would be to hunt and devour the chicken or kill for sport. I’m going to get that juicy big apple in my belly and attempt to cuddle the chicken rather than tear it limb from limb and devour it raw.

It takes a lot of mental gymnastics and harking back to our ancestors nowadays to justify our destruction and consumption of the natural world we share with other species.
 
Lilbaz said:
The golden rule, treat others how you wish to be treated. Predates the abrahamic religions.
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Religions were invented at a time when population expansion created a need for organised methods of social control. Before then peace had been more organically maintained
 
SpurMeUp said:
Although to be fair, the grass-grazed animals farmed on our shores are more comparable to smaller wild herds. Brexit has seen us open up trade with Australian beef which is linked to deforestation.

We have 5m cows appx in the UK. 10% of the 50-70m that no longer graze the plains in the Americas. The US apparently has 94m cows now. The vast majority are the grain-fed-in-a-barn type - which provides the data for most of the studies you reference.
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There are about 10mil cows in the UK and the bison herd could have been 30mil but irrespective your argument is that UK cows producing the same methane emissions as about nearly 20% (or 66% if you take the lower estimates) of a continent-sized wild herd in 1800 where there was no GHG problem, and ignoring all the other effects is OK. A truly bizarre and irrelevant comparison. It is a problem whatever way you dice it.

What % of Austrialia was deforested for their herd?

What studies did I reference?
 
Rorschach said:
There are about 10mil cows in the UK and the bison herd could have been 30mil but irrespective your argument is that UK cows producing the same methane emissions as about nearly 20% (or 66% if you take the lower estimates) of a continent-sized wild herd in 1800 where there was no GHG problem, and ignoring all the other effects is OK. A truly bizarre and irrelevant comparison. It is a problem whatever way you dice it.

What % of Austrialia was deforested for their herd?

What studies did I reference?
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The studies that you alluded to re the environmental impacts of beef are based on US-style farming practices.

According to this 5m cows is correct https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...vestock-populations-in-england-at-1-june-2022


According to this there were ‘in excess’ of 60m bison. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_bison

My pont was simple, our free-grazing livestock farming is far better for the environment than factory-style US farms that feed grain and keep animals in a shed. Should we rid the world of cattle? That is a form of engineering that humans shouldn’t undertake imo. Before we had complete dominion over the natural world, huge numbers of bison and buffalo roamed the plains and savannah. If you look at permaculture practices you’ll see that the richest forms of agriculture are where animals improve soils, and feed into the ecosystem. The richness of soils in the savannah is the most productive globally because of the wild bison and other animals.

Is there a way to farm responsibly and eat responsibly mimicking nature, or should we eradicate what is actually very natural?
 
SpurMeUp said:
The studies that you alluded to re the environmental impacts of beef are based on US-style farming practices.

According to this 5m cows is correct https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...vestock-populations-in-england-at-1-june-2022


According to this there were ‘in excess’ of 60m bison. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_bison

My pont was simple, our free-grazing livestock farming is far better for the environment than factory-style US farms that feed grain and keep animals in a shed. Should we rid the world of cattle? That is a form of engineering that humans shouldn’t undertake imo. Before we had complete dominion over the natural world, huge numbers of bison and buffalo roamed the plains and savannah. If you look at permaculture practices you’ll see that the richest forms of agriculture are where animals improve soils, and feed into the ecosystem. The richness of soils in the savannah is the most productive globally because of the wild bison and other animals.

Is there a way to farm responsibly and eat responsibly mimicking nature, or should we eradicate what is actually very natural?
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I wasn't talking about US-style farming, but more generally.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how...4j0i8i13i30.8580j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The bison number is disputed but irrelevant anyway.

Why did I bother with this stupid brick is the real question.
 
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Lilbaz said:
I seem to remember that everyone was told that brexit would cause a recession. Yet they still voted for it. There was always going to be short term pain.
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what is short term? And to what ends? What is this pain for?
 
DTA said:
what is short term? And to what ends? What is this pain for?
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That remains to be seen. A few years probably. Short term pain for long term gain. Since the eu, europe has seen lower economic growth than africa, asia and the americas. Time to catch up.
 
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