Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Finney Is Back]

We need to shrink the population gradually. Constantly increasing it with immigration is just a ponzi scheme. I would set immigration numbers at a level that very deliberately gradually shrinks the population.

I'd also solve the short term problem by cutting student loans and getting back to the situation where students work hospitality and retail jobs around their studies. Get off the East Asian sausage factory approach to education

There is a good book that I can recommend called 'Doughnut Ecomonics'. Talks about how pretty much every economic model relies on continual growth and the only way to achieve that really is with ongoing population increases. The author (I think she is an Oxford Professor) puts forward a model to achieve prosperity with zero growth

Of course the general problem with shrinking the UK population via reduced immigration is our naturally ageing population means you'll gradually have less and less workers, therefore the only way it would work is by combining your policy with enforced euthanasia.

Regarding cutting student loans and forcing students to work that would merely reduce social mobility, ensuring that those from less well off families stop going to University while those from more affluent families attend in their place.... Basically you would be doing a great deal to help the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor (which from reading your other posts seems to be the opposite of what you want to achieve in the UK).

 

[Rorschach]

There is a good book that I can recommend called 'Doughnut Ecomonics'. Talks about how pretty much every economic model relies on continual growth and the only way to achieve that really is with ongoing population increases. The author (I think she is an Oxford Professor) puts forward a model to achieve prosperity with zero growth

Of course the general problem with shrinking the UK population via reduced immigration is our naturally ageing population means you'll gradually have less and less workers, therefore the only way it would work is by combining your policy with enforced euthanasia.

Regarding cutting student loans and forcing students to work that would merely reduce social mobility, ensuring that those from less well off families stop going to University while those from more affluent families attend in their place.... Basically you would be doing a great deal to help the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor (which from reading your other posts seems to be the opposite of what you want to achieve in the UK).

A brilliant book and a blueprint for the survival of the species.

 

[Lilbaz]

amazing in theory in practice it’s been a brick show.

there are shortages everywhere, and this one of (not the only one obviously) the drivers of inflation

What shortages do we have that germany doesn't? There are far bigger things happening in the world than just brexit. China locking down every other week, war in ukraine, sanctions on russia, back log of cargo ships being able to deliver...

 

[Gutter Boy]

There is a good book that I can recommend called 'Doughnut Ecomonics'. Talks about how pretty much every economic model relies on continual growth and the only way to achieve that really is with ongoing population increases. The author (I think she is an Oxford Professor) puts forward a model to achieve prosperity with zero growth

Of course the general problem with shrinking the UK population via reduced immigration is our naturally ageing population means you'll gradually have less and less workers, therefore the only way it would work is by combining your policy with enforced euthanasia.

Regarding cutting student loans and forcing students to work that would merely reduce social mobility, ensuring that those from less well off families stop going to University while those from more affluent families attend in their place.... Basically you would be doing a great deal to help the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor (which from reading your other posts seems to be the opposite of what you want to achieve in the UK).

I think it works if the population is managed at a level of gradual decline. Yes future generations don't grow fat on the ponzi like baby boomers have, but it's the only way to be sustainable. Or mass deaths work too from an economic point of view, like the Black Death or Irish famine; but obviously not the way to go.

Good point about loans. Maybe the answer is something like mandatory 800 hours a year paid work placements in those sectors (perhaps a universal wage), as part of course accreditation.

 

[Lilbaz]

There is a good book that I can recommend called 'Doughnut Ecomonics'. Talks about how pretty much every economic model relies on continual growth and the only way to achieve that really is with ongoing population increases. The author (I think she is an Oxford Professor) puts forward a model to achieve prosperity with zero growth

Of course the general problem with shrinking the UK population via reduced immigration is our naturally ageing population means you'll gradually have less and less workers, therefore the only way it would work is by combining your policy with enforced euthanasia.

Regarding cutting student loans and forcing students to work that would merely reduce social mobility, ensuring that those from less well off families stop going to University while those from more affluent families attend in their place.... Basically you would be doing a great deal to help the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor (which from reading your other posts seems to be the opposite of what you want to achieve in the UK).

Or using ai and automating more jobs. Which is happening. Mostly in rich countries that don't rely on cheap immigrant labour. We've fallen behind.

 

[Lilbaz]

Much of the hospitality sector has very little in the way of profits. Restaurants and bars are probably the most likely new businesses to fail (will be even more likely in the coming high energy cost, higher interest climate).

If a business cannot survive without paying workers a living wage. Then it doesn't deserve to exist.

 

[monkeybarry]

If a business cannot survive without paying workers a living wage. Then it doesn't deserve to exist.

Or capitalism is so broken and skewed that an average business is disproportionately disadvantaged.

 

[Lilbaz]

Or capitalism is so broken and skewed that an average business is disproportionately disadvantaged.

Don't disagree. Globalisation has meant that large businesses and super rich can bounce their money around and pay little to no tax. Government and local government has to do their bit to help. I know the road i live on no franchise shops are allowed other than nissa. Only independent retailers. For companies like amazon, increase vat to offset business rates lost. It doesn't have to be cutting workers rights.

 

[glorygloryeze]

There actually tends to be less need to increase the size of the population when taking your immigrant workers from Europe than Asia/Africa. Young European workers tend to return home in their later years (when they become more of a burden to the state). Migrant workers from Asia and Africa are far more likely to remain.

Really? Can you tell me what you are basing this statement in bold on?

One of the things that I like to point out to some of the racist brexiteers of the generation older than me is that they have done more than anyone to ensure this country is far less white in the future. It's an absolute delicious irony I think and the only bright side and bit of joy that I get out of Brexit.

Are you really sure about that? You seem to be assuming that immigration from outside the EU countries are automatically 'non-white'; what about migration from the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand? Do you think now UK is outside of the EU that this is now less by default?

 

[Lilbaz]

Really? Can you tell me what you are basing this statement in bold on?



Are you really sure about that? You seem to be assuming that immigration from outside the EU countries are automatically 'non-white'; what about migration from the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand? Do you think now UK is outside of the EU that this is now less by default?

Or the fact that many of the somalians living in britain came here on dutch passports.

https://nomadit.co.uk/conference/easa2020/paper/55059

 

[DTA]

Really? Can you tell me what you are basing this statement in bold on?



Are you really sure about that? You seem to be assuming that immigration from outside the EU countries are automatically 'non-white'; what about migration from the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand? Do you think now UK is outside of the EU that this is now less by default?

USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand? One of the Problems with expectations of increase in immigration from those countries is why would they want to come here?

 

[glorygloryeze]

USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand? One of the Problems with expectations of increase in immigration from those countries is why would they want to come here?

Why would any immigrant want to come here, we can widen that discussion in that way if we want but the fact is people do and have always wanted to. The idea that immigrants from those countries will simply stop wanting to come overnight is farcical

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What shortages do we have that germany doesn't? There are far bigger things happening in the world than just brexit. China locking down every other week, war in ukraine, sanctions on russia, back log of cargo ships being able to deliver...

None
I look after 33 major countries for work and we are short of every skill set at every level and we employ 400000 people
I dont know where everyone has gone but they aren’t looking for work

 

[DTA]

Why would any immigrant want to come here, we can widen that discussion in that way if we want but the fact is people do and have always wanted to. The idea that immigrants from those countries will simply stop wanting to come overnight is farcical

yes we should absolutely widen it to that. Immigrants come in here by and large because there is better prospects for them to work and succeed then there is in their country of origin.

that doesn’t really apply to Australia New Zealand Canada or America. That’s not to say there is no immigration from those countries, there obviously has been and will be. But not large enough numbers to fill the job shortages we have.

 

[Lilbaz]

yes we should absolutely widen it to that. Immigrants come in here by and large because there is better prospects for them to work and succeed then there is in their country of origin.

that doesn’t really apply to Australia New Zealand Canada or America. That’s not to say there is no immigration from those countries, there obviously has been and will be. But not large enough numbers to fill the job shortages we have.

The majority of job shortages we have is either due to lack of skills or job retention. We can train people (as we are doing with truckers, introducing apprenticeship schemes), treat workers better (as we did with truckers by offering better wages and conditions), or if those are not enough, issue visas (as we did with truckers).

Why is treating our own workers better, less preferable than uncontrolled immigration?

 

[DTA]

The majority of job shortages we have is either due to lack of skills or job retention. We can train people (as we are doing with truckers, introducing apprenticeship schemes), treat workers better (as we did with truckers by offering better wages and conditions), or if those are not enough, issue visas (as we did with truckers).

Why is treating our own workers better, less preferable than uncontrolled immigration?

you bring up HGV drivers, and even with all the changes you mention there is still a massive shortages. The visa scheme is unattractive to people on the continent as I have tried to recruit them for one of my businesses.

 

[Lilbaz]

The modern left seems to care more about poor people from other countries, than they do for poor people from this country. Then wonder why poor people in this country don't vote for them.

Rather than trying to understand the reasons. They put it down to racism and stupidity. Nothing to do with trying to find a place to live, or getting a job that pays a wage you can live on. Or a doctors appointment.

Is that an immigrants fault? Should we hate them. Ofcourse not. They just want a better life. But when net immigration was at 300k a year for over a decade, while house building was around 40k a year. With cut backs in services. Competition for jobs. Poor peoples lives got worse.

 

[Lilbaz]

you bring up HGV drivers, and even with all the changes you mention there is still a massive shortages. The visa scheme is unattractive to people on the continent as I have tried to recruit them for one of my businesses.

Did you try training someone? Or offering better wages than your competitors for british drivers?

 

[DTA]

The modern left seems to care more about poor people from other countries, than they do for poor people from this country. Then wonder why poor people in this country don't vote for them.

Rather than trying to understand the reasons. They put it down to racism and stupidity. Nothing to do with trying to find a place to live, or getting a job that pays a wage you can live on. Or a doctors appointment.

Is that an immigrants fault? Should we hate them. Ofcourse not. They just want a better life. But when net immigration was at 300k a year for over a decade, while house building was around 40k a year. With cut backs in services. Competition for jobs. Poor peoples lives got worse.

And yet poor people lives have got a lot worse. Maybe immigration wasn’t the problem after all.

 

[DTA]

Did you try training someone? Or offering better wages than your competitors for british drivers?

it’s a recruitment company.