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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Lilbaz said:
Anyway going forward we will need to rethink the way we do things. Become far more self reliant, covid has seen how fragile our supply chains can be. Brexit also will see europe want to cut us off and make an example so others don't get ideas. But this opens oportunities aswell. We'll see far more links to the wider world. Aukus being the start canzuk, the pacific alliance. We are largely a service economy so distance isn't as much of a factor.

There will be tough times ahead, especially with decarbonising our economy. Just wish we had a competent party to vote for. They all seem brick. Although starmer clearing out momentum is a good start.
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Self sufficiency in energy and food, and simpler/localised supply chains are the future
 
Mikey10 said:
So, well over a million people were forced to uproot in desperation and leave their homes and families to try to seek out a new life thousands of miles away (most of them never to return), meaning that those left behind could then find jobs.

Something to look forward to as we move towards post-pandemic times.
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Our population will decline gradually without mass economic migration (due to first world birth rates), but it will have the same effect as those big traumas - higher wages and better quality of life, as labour (small l) gains more power in relation to employers
 
Gutter Boy said:
Our population will decline gradually without mass economic migration (due to first world birth rates), but it will have the same effect as those big traumas - higher wages and better quality of life, as labour (small l) gains more power in relation to employers
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Why won't those employers automate?

Or spend similar amounts of money lobbying the govt to remove labour restrictions that are economically generations out of date.
 
scaramanga said:
Why won't those employers automate?

Or spend similar amounts of money lobbying the govt to remove labour restrictions that are economically generations out of date.
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It depends how much the people realise their new-found power. And how much the economy keeps moving to being more of a closed system
 
Gutter Boy said:
It depends how much the people realise their new-found power. And how much the economy keeps moving to being more of a closed system
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What power? As employees their power is to go and get another job - not really a power if there's a robot doing their job.

They have some power as consumers - they could form some kind of Luddite/Amish group and only purchase from businesses that make entirely by hand. Consumers have repeatedly shown that cost/convenience trumps morals though - goods from China being the perfect example.
 
scaramanga said:
What power? As employees their power is to go and get another job - not really a power if there's a robot doing their job.

They have some power as consumers - they could form some kind of Luddite/Amish group and only purchase from businesses that make entirely by hand. Consumers have repeatedly shown that cost/convenience trumps morals though - goods from China being the perfect example.
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Especially with an environmental impetus, I think there's a growing realisation that localism benefits everyone (apart from the super rich). So I'd see a gradual switch to using smaller and more local companies who have decent working conditions and practice fair trade. Distance from point of production to point of consumption could become the new 'carbon footprint', or even a measure to tax against.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Especially with an environmental impetus, I think there's a growing realisation that localism benefits everyone (apart from the super rich). So I'd see a gradual switch to using smaller and more local companies who have decent working conditions and practice fair trade. Distance from point of production to point of consumption could become the new 'carbon footprint', or even a measure to tax against.
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I do not agree with all your views but I agree with that post completely.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Especially with an environmental impetus, I think there's a growing realisation that localism benefits everyone (apart from the super rich). So I'd see a gradual switch to using smaller and more local companies who have decent working conditions and practice fair trade. Distance from point of production to point of consumption could become the new 'carbon footprint', or even a measure to tax against.
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Why are buying intensively farmed beef from Australia undercutting our local British farmers?
 
So the climate fudgewits have decided to stop dragging everyone else down to their level and clear the roads a day after the public physically removed them.

Looks like we have a plan of action next time they try this brick (probably not until the weather warms up again).
 
Gutter Boy said:
Especially with an environmental impetus, I think there's a growing realisation that localism benefits everyone (apart from the super rich). So I'd see a gradual switch to using smaller and more local companies who have decent working conditions and practice fair trade. Distance from point of production to point of consumption could become the new 'carbon footprint', or even a measure to tax against.
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So your answer is to reverse decades of advancement?

Doesn't sound like much of a plan to me.
 
scaramanga said:
So the climate fudgewits have decided to stop dragging everyone else down to their level and clear the roads a day after the public physically removed them.

Looks like we have a plan of action next time they try this brick (probably not until the weather warms up again).
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They’ve really fudged it by pressing on with blockades after the initial action did what was desired, which was to gain awareness in the media and potentially get traction and sympathy for their cause. The whole point of non-violent direct action is to make a statement and start a conversation. It was incredibly stupid to keep going and rapidly lost any public support.

I checked out their website after the first blockade and it seems their intentions are honourable (I haven’t bothered delving any deeper). Ruined it by alienating the very people they want to get behind them, the general public. Much like when XR started getting a groundswell of public support then fudged it by holding up a morning rush hour tube train.
 
AuroRaman said:
They’ve really fudged it by pressing on with blockades after the initial action did what was desired, which was to gain awareness in the media and potentially get traction and sympathy for their cause. The whole point of non-violent direct action is to make a statement and start a conversation. It was incredibly stupid to keep going and rapidly lost any public support.

I checked out their website after the first blockade and it seems their intentions are honourable (I haven’t bothered delving any deeper). Ruined it by alienating the very people they want to get behind them, the general public. Much like when XR started getting a groundswell of public support then fudged it by holding up a morning rush hour tube train.
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Quite.

Protests that get attention work (I suggest bringing a lot of pretty women who don't wear much as it will always make the press). Protests that get in the way of people going about their lives will always end up with the cause worse off than before they started.

It does seem a strange hill to die on though. Of all the climate protection measures, I thought the UK was doing reasonably well at insulating homes. The govt has been spaffing our money all over the place for it.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Especially with an environmental impetus, I think there's a growing realisation that localism benefits everyone (apart from the super rich). So I'd see a gradual switch to using smaller and more local companies who have decent working conditions and practice fair trade. Distance from point of production to point of consumption could become the new 'carbon footprint', or even a measure to tax against.
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I agree with the principal, but I don't think it'll transfer into consumer behaviour in meaningful numbers. Unless Amazon becomes localised - which removes all of their business model other than delivery
 
monkeybarry said:
I agree with the principal, but I don't think it'll transfer into consumer behaviour in meaningful numbers. Unless Amazon becomes localised - which removes all of their business model other than delivery
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Not everything needs to be made here, but certain things should. Ppe, vital medicines, food, energy... france has just threatened to shut off power to the uk and jersey. We cannot be at the mercy of the good will of foreign governments. Whatever agreements we have in place last as long as those countries deem it in their interest. If they do not (as with covid) those agreements are torn up.

As better automation come in then we will not have to rely on cheap labour in china or india, to manufacture our goods. We can build up our own manufacturing capabilities.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Try this: https://cyberleninka.org/article/n/403744.pdf
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Thanks. That is interesting but it really does not tell the full story and it seeks to draw some broad conclusions from statistics that can be interpreted somewhat differently. That the demand for labor increased when millions died or left is not an indication of good times all around. The dire social conditions and superseding political turmoil that came after the famine is a historical reality. Now that is not to say that things did not improve from what was a very low base (i.e. a famine), and so care must be taken generalising from such an extreme. Farm wages increasing from fudge all is obviously to be welcomed but sunlit uplands it was not.

On your more general point that labour shortages push up wages and conditions, well yes obviously they do. And if the pandemic has shown one thing it is which jobs are absolute flimflam, and would not be missed if they disappeared overnight, and which are truly crucial.
 
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