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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Lilbaz said:
Not everything needs to be made here, but certain things should. Ppe, vital medicines, food, energy... france has just threatened to shut off power to the uk and jersey. We cannot be at the mercy of the good will of foreign governments. Whatever agreements we have in place last as long as those countries deem it in their interest. If they do not (as with covid) those agreements are torn up.

As better automation come in then we will not have to rely on cheap labour in china or india, to manufacture our goods. We can build up our own manufacturing capabilities.
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It's not just the cheap labour that keeps the price down, it's volume keeping costs down across all the factors of production.
We live in a fast moving society, I can't see spending habits moving away from that.

I agree about not being at the mercy of other countries. Covid does seem to have done something pretty negative to the outlook of a lot of major world nations. That said, it's the French - they haven't used the UK as a target for their faux dingdong swinging in ages. It's all playing to the gallery.
I'll be worried if Russia say it!
 
monkeybarry said:
It's not just the cheap labour that keeps the price down, it's volume keeping costs down across all the factors of production.
We live in a fast moving society, I can't see spending habits moving away from that.

I agree about not being at the mercy of other countries. Covid does seem to have done something pretty negative to the outlook of a lot of major world nations. That said, it's the French - they haven't used the UK as a target for their faux dingdong swinging in ages. It's all playing to the gallery.
I'll be worried if Russia say it!
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Yes i understand economies of scale will come into it. But china for example doesn't really manfacture goods from scratch. They assemble them. Take the iphone, it's chips are made in taiwan, it's boxes in czech, the screen somewhere else and so on. The uk with their new enterprise zones is trying to steal some of that business. China due to it's huge population and being communist is held back from fully automating. It would put millions out of work. Which they cannot afford. The enterprise zones in the uk would have little tax, manufacturing costs, transport costs for europe and be more reliable. If one of your employees criticises the government for example they aren't going to freak out.


We don't actually get that much gas from russia (less than 5%). We get more from qatar. Obviously though russia turns off the taps the price for gas would be unimaginable.
 
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scaramanga said:
Because it's cheaper. Same reason we buy from China.
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Of course. However, the protectionist single market favours more locally produced meat (environmental benefit) with more exacting standards of health and welfare. So in this regard Brexit has undermined our own farmers - how ironic most of them voted for it - and has given us worse quality food, and a worse environmental impact. Its not seismic just small steps in the wrong direction. Which more or less sums up the post-EU direction of travel thus far.
 
Lilbaz said:
Not everything needs to be made here, but certain things should. Ppe, vital medicines, food, energy... france has just threatened to shut off power to the uk and jersey. We cannot be at the mercy of the good will of foreign governments. Whatever agreements we have in place last as long as those countries deem it in their interest. If they do not (as with covid) those agreements are torn up.

As better automation come in then we will not have to rely on cheap labour in china or india, to manufacture our goods. We can build up our own manufacturing capabilities.
Click to expand...

Ironic. The CAP is hugely costly and wasteful (in need of reform) but one thing it did was protect national production of food. Now we are signing trade deals with Australia etc. we are giving that up. Our farmers face very uncertain futures with subsidies scheduled to diminish year by year. I think it is fair to say the EU protected energy, food, medicines for European nations. We now have very little clout to dictate any of the details of global medical standards, influence energy policies or access EU rates, or influence geopolitics. A definite step back in these spheres as things stand.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Ironic. The CAP is hugely costly and wasteful (in need of reform) but one thing it did was protect national production of food. Now we are signing trade deals with Australia etc. we are giving that up. Our farmers face very uncertain futures with subsidies scheduled to diminish year by year. I think it is fair to say the EU protected energy, food, medicines for European nations. We now have very little clout to dictate any of the details of global medical standards, influence energy policies or access EU rates, or influence geopolitics. A definite step back in these spheres as things stand.
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If we stopped producing beef and only got it from australia that would actually make us more self sustainable on food. Might sound crazy but the amount of other food stocks used to produce beef (soy etc...) is more than what you get back. If we had to go fully sustainable next year we could do it if we stopped eating meat, used the land to grow vegetables instead.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Of course. However, the protectionist single market favours more locally produced meat (environmental benefit) with more exacting standards of health and welfare. So in this regard Brexit has undermined our own farmers - how ironic most of them voted for it - and has given us worse quality food, and a worse environmental impact. Its not seismic just small steps in the wrong direction. Which more or less sums up the post-EU direction of travel thus far.
Click to expand...
Protectionism is bad - there really isn't any nuance to that.

Our consumers have the right to buy whatever they like. If our farmers cannot be good enough, different enough or cheap enough to sell to our own market, then they don't deserve our custom. Propping up inefficient industries doesn't work - look what happened with mining in this country.
 
Lilbaz said:
If we stopped producing beef and only got it from australia that would actually make us more self sustainable on food. Might sound crazy but the amount of other food stocks used to produce beef (soy etc...) is more than what you get back. If we had to go fully sustainable next year we could do it if we stopped eating meat, used the land to grow vegetables instead.
Click to expand...

This is an example of a theory not being quite true or applicable to reality. Firstly, British beef eats grass. Unlike Australian and US intensively farmed cattle (which is stuffed full of grain normally whilst living in a pen in a shed). UK beef tends to be close to carbon-neutral because it is grazing.

How would buying from Aus make us self-sustainable!? We'd rely on another nation on the other side of the planet. Your previous post was about the UK being independent. Struggling to follow the logic.

In the real world people will continue to eat beef. Therefore we should be consuming locally produced, higher quality meat (eating more expensive meat less frequently). Not cheap carbon-loaded beef shipped all the way from Australia.
 
scaramanga said:
Protectionism is bad - there really isn't any nuance to that.

Our consumers have the right to buy whatever they like. If our farmers cannot be good enough, different enough or cheap enough to sell to our own market, then they don't deserve our custom. Propping up inefficient industries doesn't work - look what happened with mining in this country.
Click to expand...

Protectionism that is on your side is not bad. You protect yourself and your family do you not?
 
SpurMeUp said:
This is an example of a theory not being quite true or applicable to reality. Firstly, British beef eats grass. Unlike Australian and US intensively farmed cattle (which is stuffed full of grain normally whilst living in a pen in a shed). UK beef tends to be close to carbon-neutral because it is grazing.

How would buying from Aus make us self-sustainable!? We'd rely on another nation on the other side of the planet. Your previous post was about the UK being independent. Struggling to follow the logic.

In the real world people will continue to eat beef. Therefore we should be consuming locally produced, higher quality meat (eating more expensive meat less frequently). Not cheap carbon-loaded beef shipped all the way from Australia.
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It was hypothetical. I'm not saying we should import meat or give up meat. But there has been various reports that have said if we had to feed ourselves we could but that would mean culling the livestock and using the land to grow vegetables.

I love meat.

Edit - seems grass fed only means fed on grass for 51% of their life. Most spend their last months fed grain and soya called finishing. https://www.primalmeats.co.uk/isnt-all-beef-in-the-uk-grass-fed/
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Protectionism that is on your side is not bad. You protect yourself and your family do you not?
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Protectionism and protecting are two very different things.

For starters, protectionism damages those it is meant to protect. Outside of the most swivel-eyed of economists, you'll struggle to find one that thinks protectionism doesn't damage economic welfare.
 
scaramanga said:
Protectionism and protecting are two very different things.

For starters, protectionism damages those it is meant to protect. Outside of the most swivel-eyed of economists, you'll struggle to find one that thinks protectionism doesn't damage economic welfare.
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Maybe some real-world examples might illuminate things. Which nations can you point to that do not have some trade protections in place? It certainly won't be successful prosperous nations. Mauritania has more or less completely free trade. No barriers or tarrifs. It is also one of the poorest nations on earth with circa 10% of the population enslaved! The US, Europe, Japan etc. - successful nations - they manage and protect their own interests. Mauritania have it right, while developed nations have it all wrong?
 
Lilbaz said:
Yes i understand economies of scale will come into it. But china for example doesn't really manfacture goods from scratch. They assemble them. Take the iphone, it's chips are made in taiwan, it's boxes in czech, the screen somewhere else and so on. The uk with their new enterprise zones is trying to steal some of that business. China due to it's huge population and being communist is held back from fully automating. It would put millions out of work. Which they cannot afford. The enterprise zones in the uk would have little tax, manufacturing costs, transport costs for europe and be more reliable. If one of your employees criticises the government for example they aren't going to freak out.


We don't actually get that much gas from russia (less than 5%). We get more from qatar. Obviously though russia turns off the taps the price for gas would be unimaginable.
Click to expand...

Russia was more an example. Either way, I don't think the French being a bit French is that important.

Re; goods, I was thinking more of the lots of cheap things rather than the mid priced items you buy every few years like a phone.
Are people going to accept £60 for trainers made in Runcorn when they can get them for £40 made in china.
Or (insert random plastic thing here) that's £3 from China and arrives from Amazon in a day through the letterbox Vs £5 from Robert Dyas and I've got to drive there.
 
monkeybarry said:
Russia was more an example. Either way, I don't think the French being a bit French is that important.

Re; goods, I was thinking more of the lots of cheap things rather than the mid priced items you buy every few years like a phone.
Are people going to accept £60 for trainers made in Runcorn when they can get them for £40 made in china.
Or (insert random plastic thing here) that's £3 from China and arrives from Amazon in a day through the letterbox Vs £5 from Robert Dyas and I've got to drive there.
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What i'm saying is that with automation there would be no difference in price. Amazon would deliver you something that is £3 made in the uk. Hell if 3d printers keep getting better you'd just make it yourself and pay 50p or find a site that did it for nothing on the sly.

I'm not saying for everything.

Did you watch the vid? I know it's fairly long but it explains in brief the plan.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Maybe some real-world examples might illuminate things. Which nations can you point to that do not have some trade protections in place? It certainly won't be successful prosperous nations. Mauritania has more or less completely free trade. No barriers or tarrifs. It is also one of the poorest nations on earth with circa 10% of the population enslaved! The US, Europe, Japan etc. - successful nations - they manage and protect their own interests. Mauritania have it right, while developed nations have it all wrong?
Click to expand...
Most democracies have some trade restrictions in place - not because the restrictions are to the benefit of the whole, but because various industry lobby groups insist on them.

If you want an example, I offer pretty much every country on this planet. Over the last few decades, trade restrictions have (with a few exceptions) decreased, international trade has increased and populations have prospered. Technology has moved at a pace - much of that due to international cooperation and outsourcing.

It's an overly used and somewhat narrow example, but read I, Pencil - it'll only take a couple of minutes. It shows how international independence is not only harmful, it's impossible.
 
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