Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
The Tories have such contempt for us that they aren't even attempting to hide their corruption anymore.
-
Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara
Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)
- Thread starter SpurMeUp
- Start date
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
There is so much uncertainty re Covid and Brexit, it is very hard to access British exports. Friends tell me that when making inquires, all the reply they get is, we don't know when the product will be available and we have no idea re pricing either. Come back in January or February of next year and we might be able to give definitive information. They (my friends) have since gone over to and American manufacturer. The country is paralyzed and it is only going to get worse.
I've followed his circular chain of reporting the Mirror story which is reporting his comments.
As far as I can see, the traitor has two arguments;
- The company is run by someone who knows someone who knows someone who isn't in the government in a decision making capacity
- He doesn't know what the company does
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
The other thing worth considering is, as they were already onto them for the first £112m contract, perhaps some scrutiny over how they performed under that contract might indicate they delivered (in what was a pressured situation) hence the awarding of the £81m follow up contract?
Of course, it could be good money after bad, an equally distinct possibility.
Either way probably not the angle a Mirror journo seeks?
As I said many times before I value democracy and the ability to vote a government in or out that that has the freedom to make decisions based on what the voters want them to do.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
There are no charges to pay on EU imports and exports as things stand. And therefore there is zero hassle paying them upfront. Nationally, it adds up to a huge amount of added bureaucracy, when you multiply all the goods coming and going. Then you have the added costs of the new infrastructure - needless lorry parks, pen pushers, more customs agents - it is impossible to make out there is no cost to the UK. To stand still - achieve the same trade as we have today - there will be increased cost and inefficiency, of that there is no doubt. Our government's own models and projections state this too. Or they are lying to us?
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
One could say that we had more democracy when we could vote in EU elections as well. Offering the UK input into a global trading power. Of course, this is a misnomer because no one ever did or cared. Now of course they do supposedly care about democracy. The UK is less democratic than other nations, for example, Switzerland. There you can vote on everything from whether to ban lawn mowing on a Sunday etc. You'd love it!
10 years ago pre-banking crisis were you lamenting a lack of democracy? Were you hung up about some environmental and trade laws that the EU controlled? If so what were they?
Diamond Lights
Alan Hutton
You'd think more would be made of this but...
As I said it's subjective, you believe one thing I believe another. It doesn't mean one is more or less valid than the other but that's what you can't seem to accept. I don't see what bringing up opinions from the banking crisis has to do with this.
You are mistaken in some ways about Switzerland, yes they have many referendums but it's about implementing the result of the referendum- I believe they had one a few years back about stopping or limiting freedom of movement but they weren't able to implement it due to their EU agreements is one example.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
A little mistaken re. Switzerland? Swiss voters have rejected a proposal to end an accord with the EU allowing the free movement of people. With all referendum votes counted, nearly 62% said they wanted to keep free movement, while 38% were against. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54316316
Since Brexit, we've made the EU look good. Polls across europe have shown the opinion of the EU has increased post-Brexit.
Here are some of the laws that the nation that is closest to a true Democracy come up with. Some of them are quite good - no reciting poetry while skiing, no urinating standing up after 10pm, animals must have a companion! https://www.newlyswissed.com/11-weird-swiss-laws/
---
Whether being in the EU is a loss of democracy is not only opinions, that are s some real facts to it. If you can't identify say an EU law that you felt stopped your democratic sovereignty, then you can't back up the opinion with evidence. The UK was drawn into the Conservative's internal wrangling about the EU. Something that few outside their party gave two hoots about a decade ago, hence referencing a previous time. Of course the elephant in the room is freedom of movement. I know a lot of people find that an issue and I completely understand. It was probably a big one for most people. On that score the UK could have controlled entrants into the UK more, and sent people back to the EU if they weren't working while in the UK. The UK has more non-EU migrants, yet polls show people prefer EU migrants to rest of the world ones. Maybe that is racist, idk its a complex subject, but the UK needs some migration as we don't want to do the worst jobs.
glasgowspur
Luka Modric
I'm a firm remainer, but I also that with the correct leadership not just the UK but most countries could make a good go of it outside of the EU. Problem is I don't see that leadership anywhere, and haven't done for a long time.
In my opinion the biggest problem with the EU started with its expansion East.
It went to fast, FOM for instance wasn't intended for the flood of cheap labour.
It was designed to allow people with similar economic conditions to move around and in similar economies. It wasn't for plumbers and brickies, it was for doctors, IT consultants etc.
EU needs reform and refocused, and it had a good opportunity to do it, but has ignored it and who knows where it will end up.
Actually I think it's you who are mistaken, there's even a reference to it in the article you linked but here is the original referendum which wasn't implemented - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26108597
I think your problem is that you seem unable to accept that someone can hold a valid opinion that differs to your own (on the EU at least), anytime someone posts their viewpoint you always come back and claim their opinion isn't valid.
I've posted to you many time that I don't like the following laws of which there is no alternative.
- State aid
- European laws overriding UK laws
- Unable to negotiate individual trade deals
- Unable to propose an EU law unless can demonstrate it benefits all EU members
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
I am not interested in proving you wrong. Why would I be, where is the value in it? I am only interested in looking at the evidence and realities in front of us.
Re. The Swiss Referendum, you referenced a 2014 one where 50.3% backed quotas on migration. The result in Switzerland from a month ago is far more conclusive 62% said they wanted to keep free movement, while 38% were against. These things are facts, not opinions. I think you might need to make a distinction.
If you wish to have a trading block, how do ensure everyone is competing on an equal footing without state aid laws to make things fair? Even within these laws there is national wiggle room. You'll find France uses a great deal of state aid, with the state owning a plethora of large companies.
Any examples of EU laws overriding UK laws that you don't like?
Completely agree we couldn't negotiate bespoke trade deals. On the flip side we benefited from EU trade deals and the weight of 500m people which opens doors. We lose some agility but gain weight and control over global affairs via the EU.
We can of course propose an EU law. One of the reasons it is so hard for anyone to identify an EU law they don't like, is they have to be in the interests of all the member countries. So most of the laws are 'likable'. Things like stopping pollution, helping free trade, free phone roaming, etc. Of course there will be compromises along the way, you can't have a free market across a whole continent comprising so many distinct nations without some compromise. But to me - in my opinion, and that of most economists - the benefits outweigh the compromises. If you think the reverse is true then evidence it.
Last edited:
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
The irony is the UK was all for a broader EU, with Germany and France less keen. It was phased in, with Germany and France not opening their doors for some years to the new nations, yet we let them all in. In other words - a lot of sovereign UK decisions were made which have caused issues in the UK. It is always easier to externalise and blame someone else though.
The UK has also benefited from this wider EU. The free market is huge, our businesses could sell into so many nations. People have bought property in cheaper nations. A friend was telling me he wants to buy a 25k property in Bulgaria. How awesome! Freedom across a continent is a great thing, despite the issues the UK has had with freedom of movement. Much of the issues are homegrown or poorly managed by our government.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
My mate purchased a place in Canada they are not in the EU
glasgowspur
Luka Modric
I think we should all be for a broader and more aligned world, but for me they tried to shoe horn the Eastern countries in to existing rules and procedures instead of adapting to suit the new comers.
A chance was missed there, opportunity to grow a new economy with a strong base.
Just seems like an even bigger hitch potch of countries who aren't really sure where they are going.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
No doubt you are right. These smaller eastern nations are developing to be fair. There are one-size-fits-all issues for sure. But EU government doesn't actually do all that much. Each european nation has strong independent national governance. Fiscal controls are almost all held by the nation-state. When you strip it back the EU is a customs union at heart. Sadly, for me, I don't think people understood that - or even do now.
There is no going back, too many people would be embarrassed. So the UK is going to be the experiment. Lets see how it goes. I predicted a gradual downgrading as a result of leaving. Not profound, but a steady more away from the core to the periphery for the UK. The value of our currency suggests the world agrees at this current time. But it is so complex there isn't one black or white prediction, one can only make judgment calls based on the likely positives and negatives you can identify. At this late stage we have no idea of what kind of trading agreement we'll have with the EU - who take most of our exports, and that we rely on for so many of our imports.
Hopefully, those who missold brexit are held to account. Companies can not advertise a product the way Brexit was presented to people. You'd fall foul of the advising standards. If you missold a mortgage or financial services to someone - told them it would give you something it did not - then again the company that sold it would be held to account. It will be interesting to see if democracy will do the same.
glorygloryeze
Tom Huddlestone
What about those who 'missold the European Common Market' and how it was not going to lead to 'Ever closer Union'?
It's really no hardship and will be less costly outside the protectionist EU.
...but it's currently a non story as I expanded upon earlier.