• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

OMT - Tottenham Hotspur vs Smoggies in FA Cup

Man of the match

  • Total voters
    30
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
glasgowspur said:
So which players are City using on a regular basis from their academy?
Can you name three from peps time there?
Click to expand...

I would refer you to the coach of the World Champions, European Champions and runaway PL leaders. See below

SteveAWOL said:
Some nice wheeler-dealer dealing by (our former analyst under Redknapp) Michael Edwards up at Liverpool... can but hope for such good business by whomever Levy and Mourinho decide upon...
https://twitter.com/x/status/1207746494515863553
Click to expand...

We have spent big money on Janssen, Sissoko, Sanchez, Aurier, Moura, ( ignoring NDombele, LoCelso and Sess). Liverpool sold Coutinho for about £145m and lost their talisman Sourez. Apart from VDV and their goalie, their spending was roughly of the same order as ours. The difference is that they have really developed their signings and brought Gomes, Ogri and AA through. Their youth team just beat Everton full first team!

Our signings, on the other hand, have not improved the first team at all.
 
Last edited:
Pirate55 said:
I would refer you to the coach of the World Champions, European Champions and runaway PL leaders. See below



We have spent big money on Janssen, Sissoko, Sanchez, Aurier, Moura, ( ignoring NDombele, LoCelso and Sess). Liverpool sold Coutinho for about £145m and lost their talisman Sourez. Apart from VDV and their goalie, their spending was roughly of the same order as ours. The difference is that they have really developed their signings and bought Gomes, Ogri and AA through. Their youth team just beat Everton full first team!

Our signings, on the other hand, have not improved the first team at all.
Click to expand...


We have not spent big money on jannssen, or arguably Moura or Serge, in fact those don't even add up to what Liverpool spent on a keeper.
Suarez was what 6 or 7 years ago and under a different manager so see little relevance in that.
One example, flawed as it is, doesn't prove your point, if it's as easy as you made it sound why isn't everyone doing it?
 
glorygloryeze said:
Out of interst @BrainOfLevy why are you now of the opinion that this squad is 'done' when you didn't think so last spring?
You have/had been one of the most positive voices about our squad.

Imo, the issues are broadly the same, but our results are now matching our performances and i've actually thought that we've been like this since April 2018 actually...
Click to expand...

I guess because last spring the CL run was masking a lot of the issues. I also thought that the previous coaching staff had reversed their usual physical patterns - we usually peak towards the end of seasons under them but I think they wanted to take advantage of WC conditioning to start the season strong. I thought we’d flip to our usual pattern this year and improve once late November hit again. We never really got to see that in practice.

I always try and see the world with some nuance rather than black and white, because every strategic decision is a choice with trade offs and benefits and drawbacks. So I was on the side of Levy when things were going well because I could see the logic, even though I’m sure most of us acknowledged that a season with no ins or outs was storing a lot of work in future windows down the line.

And as I’ve been saying the last couple of weeks. Levy is the one in the hot seat, and because of that position of power he will win most of the arguments. That’s the benefit to him. The consequence is that he is a sporting executive and his decisions need to lead to consistent results, if not questions will be asked. So while I can see the logic of why we’ve done things the way we have, the benefit of hindsight allows us to look back and think about what we could have done differently.

And I think, if there was truly no other choice, because of stadium finance or whatever else, and Poch’s demands were unrealistic, then Levy did the absolute best he could. But the higher likelihood is, we could have made different choices that had equally sound logic, we just didn’t follow them. And because Levy gets to win the arguments, he also needs to deliver results.

I would say it’s becoming clearer that Levy never had any intention of letting Toby go for cheap, or Eriksen for less than a huge fee for example. He reasoned that keeping them for as long possible would save us having to buy someone else unless we had to, and we kept quality players. And hearing this, it becomes clearer why Poch didn’t bomb them. Because if your chairman is refusing to sell them, and you want to present a united front as a club, you have to make do.

But what if for example we shifted Eriksen for say 75M when we had the chance? And got Bruno Fernandes in earlier? What about shifting Toby earlier and giving Sanchez more starts and Foyth more exposure? Maybe both of them would be better by now? These are just two examples, but there are probably a number of other players that Poch wanted to move but wasn’t able to. Would it really have fudged us financially? We were able to move out Walker and replace him - maybe not to the same quality individually but at no cost to the overall spirit and dynamic.

So my point is, we could have taken different decisions, and maybe we’d be in a different place right now. Maybe the club wouldn’t feel like it’s in such a slog. Maybe we would have preserved the spirit and culture like Fergie was able to by proactively moving players on before stagnation sets in. Because if Jose isn’t able to turn this around, Levy will have questions to answer. Unless there really wasn’t any other way, and all decisions had to be taken exactly as they were less the club go bust, we could have gone a different way. A different fork in the road. If this rebuild has to happen anyway to the extent that had been called for all along, and we don’t save this season, Levy will have unfortunately rolled the dice and came up short, and should have questions to answer for that.
 
Although I will also say, if we manage to turn this season around and it’s saved, Levy deserves all the credit for taking a decision that many people would never have had the balls to take.
 
glorygloryeze said:
Out of interst @BrainOfLevy why are you now of the opinion that this squad is 'done' when you didn't think so last spring?
You have/had been one of the most positive voices about our squad.

Imo, the issues are broadly the same, but our results are now matching our performances and i've actually thought that we've been like this since April 2018 actually...
Click to expand...

And shorter answer, I think our success was built on everyone being united, together, and feeing like Spurs was the best place for them. As any successful team is.

You’ve probably seen it in your own work. When you’re inspired into great work because you think you’re in the right place for you, it’s natural and it gets more out of you. I think our squad fractured because a few players started viewing it like work, a job they are required to get through, rather than an inspirational place to develop. And then that effects the players that do actually want to be here, meaning unity and togetherness is harder to get.

The players are still going to run. Human psychology dictates they are never going to let themselves get consistently embarrassed. But the silly goals we concede are because the players aren’t entirely as switched on as they need to be, and they aren’t in synch. It’s gone.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
And shorter answer, I think our success was built on everyone being united, together, and feeing like Spurs was the best place for them. As any successful team is.

You’ve probably seen it in your own work. When you’re inspired into great work because you think you’re in the right place for you, it’s natural and it gets more out of you. I think our squad fractured because a few players started viewing it like work, a job they are required to get through, rather than an inspirational place to develop. And then that effects the players that do actually want to be here, meaning unity and togetherness is harder to get.

The players are still going to run. Human psychology dictates they are never going to let themselves get consistently embarrassed. But the silly goals we concede are because the players aren’t entirely as switched on as they need to be, and they aren’t in synch. It’s gone.
Click to expand...

I like the reference to thinking about your own work. In my previous job I worked for a small consultancy. When I joined there was 6 of us, and over the next 2 years we had a lot of success in our sector and grew to 25 or so. Two of the best working years of my life, and I was willing to work long hours because I was happy, committed, and saw the success that my hard work was contributing to. But we struggled to adapt to our slightly larger size, and over the next 2 years things started to go downhill - losing clients, losing money, people getting stressed and relationships getting strained. I left at that point because my heart just wasn't in it anymore, and I literally don't think there's anything that anyone could have done to make me want to stay - and therefore to be at my best. I was just never going to feel the same at that organisation as I did in the first two years, which had been such a special period.

Maybe it's that experience that has informed my own view all along - that a lot of the players are probably experiencing that kind of thing after 2.5 years of backward momentum, and that that's the no.1 cause of our current downfall.
 
elltrev said:
I like the reference to thinking about your own work. In my previous job I worked for a small consultancy. When I joined there was 6 of us, and over the next 2 years we had a lot of success in our sector and grew to 25 or so. Two of the best working years of my life, and I was willing to work long hours because I was happy, committed, and saw the success that my hard work was contributing to. But we struggled to adapt to our slightly larger size, and over the next 2 years things started to go downhill - losing clients, losing money, people getting stressed and relationships getting strained. I left at that point because my heart just wasn't in it anymore, and I literally don't think there's anything that anyone could have done to make me want to stay - and therefore to be at my best. I was just never going to feel the same at that organisation as I did in the first two years, which had been such a special period.

Maybe it's that experience that has informed my own view all along - that a lot of the players are probably experiencing that kind of thing after 2.5 years of backward momentum, and that that's the no.1 cause of our current downfall.
Click to expand...
To misquote AVB...

upload_2020-1-7_14-15-37.gif
 
glasgowspur said:
We have not spent big money on jannssen, or arguably Moura or Serge, in fact those don't even add up to what Liverpool spent on a keeper.
Suarez was what 6 or 7 years ago and under a different manager so see little relevance in that.
One example, flawed as it is, doesn't prove your point, if it's as easy as you made it sound why isn't everyone doing it?
Click to expand...

I am demonstrating the effect a top quality coach has to improve players he buys.
 
If you're talking about Klopp he has mostly/always bought his primary targets for first XI positions, when first choices weren't available he stuck with what he had until they were (famously sticking with their calamitous defence/GK until he could drop world record fees on a GK and CB) If Poch was afforded that luxury in the market it would be a fair comparison.
 
billyiddo said:
If you're talking about Klopp he has mostly/always bought his primary targets for first XI positions, when first choices weren't available he stuck with what he had until they were (famously sticking with their calamitous defence/GK until he could drop world record fees on a GK and CB) If Poch was afforded that luxury in the market it would be a fair comparison.
Click to expand...

TBF the average cost of a Liverpool signing that starts under Klopp is around £40m each for 9 players roughly

and firmimo was brought us before he joined
 
Finney Is Back said:
Sorry I am a bit confused here. On one hand you seem to be criticising Aurier's positioning and on the other you seem to agree that he is playing the way that his manager wants him to play? So you need to decide which one of them is the problem I think.

Mourinho is asking Aurier to play high up the pitch and is asking his left back (be it Vertonghen or Davies) to tuck in and play like a third centre half. If you have a problem with this shape then surely your problem has to be with Mourinho instead of with Aurier who is simply playing as he is being asked to do? I also don't see a lack of effort from Aurier (and often more effort from him than many of the rest of the team) and, I don't think he has suffered any more brain farts than the rest of our team since Mourinho arrived either. Early on in his Spurs career he was very rash, but I think he has tempered that pretty well and improved this season). I think overall Aurier has probably been one of the better performers for Mourinho. I think if he wasn't playing as instructed by the manager then the manager would firstly be ripping him a new one from the touchline (which he isn't) and then subbing him off (which he isn't) and then picking somebody else as this first choice right sided player (which, again, he isn't).

From what I can tell Aurier has been asked to provide all of our attacking width on the right when we have possession. It seems to me that Mourinho is only really asking him to stay deep when the opposition's left back joins their attack. If I look at all of the goals we have conceded since Mourinho took over they are reasonably spaced around. I don't think more have come from our right than our left and I think goals through the centre probably number as many, if not more than those from the wings. If I look at Aurier's performances in the time under Jose I think he was poor against both Man Utd and Chelsea (but wasn't anywhere near alone in either game).

If you read many of my posts over a good length of time you will see that I have advocated us bringing in another right back for a good while, so it isn't true to say that I'm a fan of Aurier, I think we can certainly do better (just as we can in 4 or 5 positions). I just find it strange when players get dug out for performances in games when they haven't been part of the problem at all. Aurier was our best player at the weekend and I would rather performances were called out objectively based on that game, as opposed to bias formed from prior appearances. In this case Steff I think you have a negative bias against Aurier and a positive bias for Dele, both formed due to what you have seen previously.
Click to expand...
THIS! Very good post!
 
Bedfordspurs said:
TBF the average cost of a Liverpool signing that starts under Klopp is around £40m each for 9 players roughly

and firmimo was bought us before he joined
Click to expand...

Exactly. And remember Liverpool lost their star man for 140 million. Imagine Poch without uber Kane for a fairer comparison. My point remains that Pool developed virtually every player they bought, whereas we didn't.
 
billyiddo said:
If you're talking about Klopp he has mostly/always bought his primary targets for first XI positions, when first choices weren't available he stuck with what he had until they were (famously sticking with their calamitous defence/GK until he could drop world record fees on a GK and CB) If Poch was afforded that luxury in the market it would be a fair comparison.
Click to expand...

If you look at the figures I posted above, Klopp's net spend was only 95.3 million ( 412.25 - 316.95) . I would suggest that our net spend under Poch was considerably more - and he started with a base of Walker, Verts, Rose, Dembele, Lamela, Eriksen and Kane. Not a bad backbone for starters.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
TBF the average cost of a Liverpool signing that starts under Klopp is around £40m each for 9 players roughly

and firmimo was bought us before he joined
Click to expand...

Im not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me there but the average price of our signings under Poch up to and including his last full season was less than 14m and if you want to include this summers signings it goes up to 15.5m

I would say there's a bit of a grey area as to who is and who isn't a starter for us if you want to look at it that way (above is all signings) as you have with Liverpool

Lloris, Trippier, Toby, Jan, Davies, Sissoko, Winks, Son, Alli, Eriksen, Kane

As a typical starting XI from his last full season (22m av) chuck in Gazzaniga Sanchez Aurier Foyth Dier Moura and Llorente as a subs bench of players signed by him and players used fairly regularly then you arrive at 20m.

Not really going to labor the point much longer as i think it's beyond obvious where the truth lies regarding our transfers.

Edit: used transfermarkt website for transfer fee info
 
Pirate55 said:
If you look at the figures I posted above, Klopp's net spend was only 95.3 million ( 412.25 - 316.95) . I would suggest that our net spend under Poch was considerably more - and he started with a base of Walker, Verts, Rose, Dembele, Lamela, Eriksen and Kane. Not a bad backbone for starters.
Click to expand...
That net spend figure is massively skewed by the sale of Coutinho and also they way they have netted off previous failures like Benteke (his sale goes as a benefit against Klopp)
 
billyiddo said:
Im not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me there but the average price of our signings under Poch up to and including his last full season was less than 14m and if you want to include this summers signings it goes up to 15.5m

I would say there's a bit of a grey area as to who is and who isn't a starter for us if you want to look at it that way (above is all signings) as you have with Liverpool

Lloris, Trippier, Toby, Jan, Davies, Sissoko, Winks, Son, Alli, Eriksen, Kane

As a typical starting XI from his last full season (22m av) chuck in Gazzaniga Sanchez Aurier Foyth Dier Moura and Llorente as a subs bench of players signed by him and players used fairly regularly then you arrive at 20m.

Not really going to labor the point much longer as i think it's beyond obvious where the truth lies regarding our transfers.

Edit: used transfermarkt website for transfer fee info[/QUOTE/]
my comment was just to highlight that klopp has actually spent a bloody fortune in reality but because of the Coutinho sale it gets ignored
The only first team player he has brought for less than 28m I believe is Robertson
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back