OMT - Tottenham Hotspur vs Smoggies in FA Cup

[glorygloryeze]

I agree - there was definitely logic in how we did it and I think the ‘no signings in or out’ summer probably helped contribute to a spirit and togetherness that got us to the CL final. Regardless it was justifiable, and with a stadium build, tough to balance.

It’s just for me, Levy’s in the hot seat. He could have made different decisions, and as he’s a sporting executive the success or otherwise of those decisions will be based on results. We could have shifted Eriksen and Toby earlier as you say, we could have hired a DOF, we could have done other things that meant we operated at break even but just sold off players. Because, and even loads of fans said this at the time in summer 2018, we were just storing up problems in the rebuild to further down the line, given us more work to do in more concentrated windows. This was something that was a factor, and we had a choice as to whether we wanted to go that way.

I disagree with the bolded bit; i think it showed to our best players that we were not that ambitious overall as a club and were happy to try and 'wing it' to stay top 4 instead of improving our chances of attempting to win the top honours. Our run to the CL was glorious but very lucky at key points and eventually that luck ran out.

I think mentally (and physically) some started to partially check out - we'd scraped top 4 the previous year as it was and it was clear to everyone in football that we needed reinforcements.
As you say, we stored up the 'rebuild' to having to be done when we're more desperate rather than when we were in a position of strength, and the results of that we are witnessing fully (and without the results papering over the performances as they were previously).

It will be a long road from here now - and all self-inflicted

 

[Bedfordspurs]

If you dont think that lot are worse than Serge you are being overly bias.

Nah their no worse than him IMo. I don’t remember them taking related foul throws for a start... and they all played full back rather than on the wing. They had actual awareness of where to play too. Nod saying they were any good mind, but they did the basics

 

[glorygloryeze]

I have to say my pulses really started racing when Lo Celso and Lamela started some great passing movements when they came on. Moura and Eriksen (apart from his set-pieces) really started to get more involved after that double-sub imo.
Was very promising - until i realised we were playing a team from the lower half of the second-tier...

 

[billyiddo]

I disagree with the bolded bit; i think it showed to our best players that we were not that ambitious overall as a club and were happy to try and 'wing it' to stay top 4 instead of improving our chances of attempting to win the top honours. Our run to the CL was glorious but very lucky at key points and eventually that luck ran out.

I think mentally (and physically) some started to partially check out - we'd scraped top 4 the previous year as it was and it was clear to everyone in football that we needed reinforcements.
As you say, we stored up the 'rebuild' to having to be done when we're more desperate rather than when we were in a position of strength, and the results of that we are witnessing fully (and without the results papering over the performances as they were previously).

It will be a long road from here now - and all self-inflicted

Did Liverpools inactivity this summer show the same to their players?

Do you think a cut price deal for a Championship midfielder like Grealish or another Nkoudou or Njie would have shown our key men that we meant business any more?

 

[thfcsteff]

While I see your logic, I don't agree. Tired or otherwise, I simply don't think Dele is at all effective deeper. That is the mistake Poch kept making. That is where we saw "Dele's brother" play! I thought JM had recognized that in his first few games and put Dele back to where he is most effective, i.e. Making runs into the penalty area to score. Why he reverted to playing him in an ineffectual role is a mystery to me.

Personally, i do agree Dele is knackered and fatigued from too many games. When he was right through and had a couple of yards start on the defender ( against Norwich iirc) and let the defender make up ground to make a wonderous last ditch block, spoke volumes. A fully fit and unfatigued Dele would never have been that slow.

I don’t think there is a single supporter who does not agree that Dele off Kane uptop is where he should be. That is not a debate.

It comes down to whether you want to find a way Dele can work for the team when Kane/a striker, are not playing. And I believe, personally, that in these situations I do want him out there and I’d play him deeper.

 

[thfcsteff]

6 assists and 1 goal in 20 games ain't bad for a fullback.

Agreed! I just wish he could defend a bit.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Did Liverpools inactivity this summer show the same to their players?

Do you think a cut price deal for a Championship midfielder like Grealish or another Nkoudou or Njie would have shown our key men that we meant business any more?

Liverpool's players had just won the CL (against us, ironically) whilst we had just scraped top 4, finishing 3rd. Big difference in situation wouldn't you say?

I think buying the kinds of players that were NEEDED would have shown ambition:

- a cm to take over from Dembele (who was creeking by April/May 2018)
- a defensive cm to take over from Wanyama and play with Dier
- a pacy forward to play with and/or alongside Kane

I actually think Grealish would have been a good signing, but again, were we going for him because we actually thought he'd help the team or because he looked like being a cheap buy we could flip and resale in 18 months or so? Again, all about the ambition...

 

[Pirate55]

And to add:

Trippier was signed for 3.5M and had last season injured
Dier unproven at 4M and was key in 86 points
Wanyama lost his knees but was signed for 11M
Dele - 5M from League 1
Rose - inconsistent before turning into the best left back in the country at his peak
Jan - inconsistent before becoming one of the best in the country
Toby - signed for 10M

Are you not surprised that so many players that were signed for relative pittance in this day and age all suddenly turned into some of the best players in their position in the country / the world all at the same time? What do you think the common denominator there was? To blame Poch for the stagnation of players that probably thought that playing in the CL final was something they’d achieve if they were extremely lucky at best in most cases is just not fair in my view.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think the run there was without it’s share of luck, or some massively secret tactical genius he unleashed. But I do think the spirit through his time there and the culture he created played its part.

The squad we have is not the squad Poch wanted if he had it his way. He was saying for 2 years to start shifting players before stagnation sets in. This is Levy’s squad. I don’t know how Poch gets blame for this squad when he’s on record saying he wanted changes...he only ‘left us’ with it in the sense he was the Manager until he was sacked (‘he was only homeless in the sense he had no home’ for you Thick Of It fans!) but to make out this is what he wanted to build is just wilful ignorance. He wanted the rebuild started long ago. Levy thought these players had more to give / didn’t want to take any hit on fees / probably both - and we are where we are.

That is my point. How much did we actually spend gross under Poch? If Poch was such a great coach, why didn't he either coach our academy players to greatness or make more success of the 26 signings? As to the players you mention, Poch had worked with Wanyama and Toby before at Soton, Dele was a Pleat inspired buy, Rose and Jan were already at the club before he arrived. I am not sure who recruited Dier and Trippier was a busted flush for us last season . I wouldn't exactly call his dealings in the transfer market a success

I will be extremely interested to see what success he has at his next club.

 

[billyiddo]

Liverpool's players had just won the CL (against us, ironically) whilst we had just scraped top 4, finishing 3rd. Big difference in situation wouldn't you say?

I think buying the kinds of players that were NEEDED would have shown ambition:

- a cm to take over from Dembele (who was creeking by April/May 2018)
- a defensive cm to take over from Wanyama and play with Dier
- a pacy forward to play with and/or alongside Kane

I actually think Grealish would have been a good signing, but again, were we going for him because we actually thought he'd help the team or because he looked like being a cheap buy we could flip and resale in 18 months or so? Again, all about the ambition...

Yes agreed buying the right types of players in the right positions at that time would have shown ambition but i think it's patently obvious that was not really on the cards due to focus/finances being on the stadium. So the likely options were a summer of cheap deals (see our only real known interest that summer being in a cut price Grealish deal which evaporated as soon as Villa were bought out and the price went to a more realistic number) or a summer of no deals, neither were ideal or would have shown any ambition to our players

 

[glorygloryeze]

Yes agreed buying the right types of players in the right positions at that time would have shown ambition but i think it's patently obvious that was not really on the cards due to focus/finances being on the stadium. So the likely options were a summer of cheap deals (see our only real known interest that summer being in a cut price Grealish deal which evaporated as soon as Villa were bought out and the price went to a more realistic number) or a summer of no deals, neither were ideal or would have shown any ambition to our players

Well, we did try for both De Ligt and De Jong, so it was on the cards....how ambitious we acted to actually GET get those guys (and/or other targets not necessarily known to us as fans) is very much up for debate (and often our board have shown themselves to not be as ambitious from a footballing side compared to 'moving up the Delloite money table' side).

Several ways to show ambition; buying playing who can usurp the current ones (i.e. keeping them on edge by making them unsure if they are guaranteed to play week in, week out) is one. Getting players in early to fully integrate in the team in pre-season also shows ambition.
Haggling for a player who might bolster the squad all summer only because yo think he might come cheap and then don't end up getting him in the despite bidding a larger fee than in the end (Grealish, Zaha etc) just shows that despite all the talk to the contrary, actually things haven't really changed...

 

[glasgowspur]

That is my point. How much did we actually spend gross under Poch? If Poch was such a great coach, why didn't he either coach our academy players to greatness or make more success of the 26 signings? As to the players you mention, Poch had worked with Wanyama and Toby before at Soton, Dele was a Pleat inspired buy, Rose and Jan were already at the club before he arrived. I am not sure who recruited Dier and Trippier was a busted flush for us last season . I wouldn't exactly call his dealings in the transfer market a success

I will be extremely interested to see what success he has at his next club.

. If its as easy as training your academy players and cheap buys to be world beaters why isn't everyone doing it?
Pep and Jose, widely regarded as the two best managers of the last decade, why aren't they doing it instead of spending a billion pounds over their careers?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Liverpool's players had just won the CL (against us, ironically) whilst we had just scraped top 4, finishing 3rd. Big difference in situation wouldn't you say?

I think buying the kinds of players that were NEEDED would have shown ambition:

- a cm to take over from Dembele (who was creeking by April/May 2018)
- a defensive cm to take over from Wanyama and play with Dier
- a pacy forward to play with and/or alongside Kane

I actually think Grealish would have been a good signing, but again, were we going for him because we actually thought he'd help the team or because he looked like being a cheap buy we could flip and resale in 18 months or so? Again, all about the ambition...

TBF we brought every target that was reported from day 1 that Poch wanted

I’m convinced the clubs didn’t see any issues with the DM role as maybe, just maybe we would look at a slightly different set up for the team
We did buy 3 players - a defender who can play in attack too (we will see where sessegnon ends up), a dribbling CM and a versatile attacking player in Lo Celso. I’d argue the latter two cover the roles the club saw as key
But then who knows anymore

 

[Bedfordspurs]

. If its as easy as training your academy players and cheap buys to be world beaters why isn't everyone doing it?
Pep and Jose, widely regarded as the two best managers of the last decade, why aren't they doing it instead of spending a billion pounds over their careers?

because clubs with money have a need an demand for instant success
You can’t get that with developing players

 

[glasgowspur]

because clubs with money have a need an demand for instant success
You can’t get that with developing players

So it is easy, but people are impatient.
So why aren't clubs who don't have the money doing it?

 

[glorygloryeze]

TBF we bought every target that was reported from day 1 that Poch wanted

I’m convinced the clubs didn’t see any issues with the DM role as maybe, just maybe we would look at a slightly different set up for the team
We did buy 3 players - a defender who can play in attack too (we will see where sessegnon ends up), a dribbling CM and a versatile attacking player in Lo Celso. I’d argue the latter two cover the roles the club saw as key
But then who knows anymore

I was comparing Liverpool's summer 2019 inactivity with our summer 2018 inactivity (one club had won the CL and got very VERY close in the league whilst getting a points total it would have been unheard of and not win the league, whilst we had just scraped 3rd) and showing that it was foolish to do so, given the respective positions of the clubs at the points when they didn't spend

 

[billyiddo]

I was comparing Liverpool's summer 2019 inactivity with our summer 2018 inactivity (one club had won the CL and got very VERY close in the league whilst getting a points total it would have been unheard of and not win the league, whilst we had just scraped 3rd) and showing that it was foolish to do so, given the respective positions of the clubs at the points when they didn't spend

I was trying to highlight that a summer of no deals of itself is not the issue, the issue is what surrounds it and that the choice that summer wasn't sign top level talent to improve the team or sign no one it was to sign more punts/cut price players - the type of signings which has meant an over reliance on the core group and contributed to the issues we currently face

 

[Bedfordspurs]

So it is easy, but people are impatient.
So why aren't clubs who don't have the money doing it?

They are
Hence why they sell those players on
Norwich are an example
They sold Maddison who they brought cheap, developed and sold on. They will do the same with a few this season
Brentford do it all the time

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I was comparing Liverpool's summer 2019 inactivity with our summer 2018 inactivity (one club had won the CL and got very VERY close in the league whilst getting a points total it would have been unheard of and not win the league, whilst we had just scraped 3rd) and showing that it was foolish to do so, given the respective positions of the clubs at the points when they didn't spend

We came 4th
And we were higher than them when we didn’t spend
They did to catch up
It happens (although obviously no one had ever not signed anyone)

 

[glorygloryeze]

I was trying to highlight that a summer of no deals of itself is not the issue, the issue is what surrounds it

Indeed; which is what people said at the time, i.e. we couldn't afford to act like how Liverpool have just done so, in that we were in a far more precarious place...

 

[glorygloryeze]

We came 4th
And we were higher than them when we didn’t spend
They did to catch up
It happens (although obviously no one had ever not signed anyone)

We can 3rd in May 2018 - and we limped over the line as we were creeking even then.
When we didn't spend we were what, 2/3 points higher than them.
They didn't spend this summer after finishing what 26/27 points ahead of us. One non-spender was doing it form a position of far greater strength, so i have no idea why people are trying to compare the two situations..