OMT - Tottenham Hotspur vs Smoggies in FA Cup

[elltrev]

If you look at the figures I posted above, Klopp's net spend was only 95.3 million ( 412.25 - 316.95) . I would suggest that our net spend under Poch was considerably more - and he started with a base of Walker, Verts, Rose, Dembele, Lamela, Eriksen and Kane. Not a bad backbone for starters.

In Poch’s first 5 seasons it was about £34m. Whereas under Klopp’s first 4 seasons it was 95m-123m (depending on whether you include summer 2015, just before Klopp started I believe). And those numbers are helped by the disproportionately large Coutinho fee.

We then spent £62m net this summer, but unfortunately I think it was too late after 5 years of minimal spend.

 

[Jordinho]

In Poch’s first 5 seasons it was about £34m. Whereas under Klopp’s first 4 seasons it was 95m-123m (depending on whether you include summer 2015, just before Klopp started I believe). And those numbers are helped by the disproportionately large Coutinho fee.

We then spent £62m net this summer, but unfortunately I think it was too late after 5 years of minimal spend.

Not to mention how much getting rid of Coutinho improved them. Win-win really.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I would refer you to the coach of the World Champions, European Champions and runaway PL leaders. See below



We have spent big money on Janssen, Sissoko, Sanchez, Aurier, Moura, ( ignoring NDombele, LoCelso and Sess). Liverpool sold Coutinho for about £145m and lost their talisman Sourez. Apart from VDV and their goalie, their spending was roughly of the same order as ours. The difference is that they have really developed their signings and bought Gomes, Ogri and AA through. Their youth team just beat Everton full first team!

Our signings, on the other hand, have not improved the first team at all.

That completely ignores their £100 million bigger wage bill. Two of their decent signings we wanted but didn't match Liverpool's wage offer.

 

[Pirate55]

Im not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me there but the average price of our signings under Poch up to and including his last full season was less than 14m and if you want to include this summers signings it goes up to 15.5m

I would say there's a bit of a grey area as to who is and who isn't a starter for us if you want to look at it that way (above is all signings) as you have with Liverpool

Lloris, Trippier, Toby, Jan, Davies, Sissoko, Winks, Son, Alli, Eriksen, Kane

As a typical starting XI from his last full season (22m av) chuck in Gazzaniga Sanchez Aurier Foyth Dier Moura and Llorente as a subs bench of players signed by him and players used fairly regularly then you arrive at 20m.

Not really going to labor the point much longer as i think it's beyond obvious where the truth lies regarding our transfers.

Edit: used transfermarkt website for transfer fee info

The average is low under Poch because we bought 26 ( yes 26 ! ) players. It was quantity over quality. The real failure though is that so few kicked on. And only Winks out of our promising youth academy has established himself ( Tactics Tim introduced Kane to the first team).

 

[Pirate55]

That completely ignores their £100 million bigger wage bill. Two of their decent signings we wanted but didn't match Liverpool's wage offer.

In retrospect ( and hindsight is a wonderful thing) , if we had bought half the number of players we did ( say 13), theoretically we could have paid twice as much and paid them double for the same overall cost.

 

[Finney Is Back]

The average is low under Poch because we bought 26 ( yes 26 ! ) players. It was quantity over quality. The real failure though is that so few kicked on. And only Winks out of our promising youth academy has established himself ( Tactics Tim introduced Kane to the first team).

That's what happens when you want (e.g.) Mane and get (e.g.) N'Koudou though.

 

[glasgowspur]

Exactly. And remember Liverpool lost their star man for 140 million. Imagine Poch without uber Kane for a fairer comparison. My point remains that Pool developed virtually every player they bought, whereas we didn't.

So there was no improvement in Kane or dele?

 

[billyiddo]

So there was no improvement in Kane or dele?

I find it amazing that we managed to go from a 5th 6th place team before he arrived to a 2nd 3rd place side diring his time here whithout buying good players, developing youth or improving the players already here.

 

[glasgowspur]

I find it amazing that we managed to go from a 5th 6th place team before he arrived to a 2nd 3rd place side diring his time here whithout buying good players, developing youth or improving the players already here.

Yes, went from getting spanked against City, Liverpool, utd, arsenal and Chelsea to not only beating them in one of ganes but finishing above them in the league.
But we never improved, you couldn't make that up.

 

[Pirate55]

So there was no improvement in Kane or dele?

I am not saying Poch didn't improve our first team. Clearly he did. My point is that ( outside the first X1) he largely failed to improve the many players we bought or our bright academy prospects.

Levy's business model assumed we had a fantastic coach and if young prospects were bought he would improve them. Then we could either sell them on at a profit or they would be assets in our first team. Same with the academy. Sadly, it didn't happen.

 

[Finney Is Back]

In retrospect ( and hindsight is a wonderful thing) , if we had bought half the number of players we did ( say 13), theoretically we could have paid twice as much and paid them double for the same overall cost.

Not really. As its not like all 26 were always in our squad. There was an element of wheeling and dealing there, especially when Poch was having to make do with a cheaper player he didn't really want.

I said it a million times in the Poch/New manager threads but will say again Typically the clubs with the biggest wage budgets win all the trophies. It's a simple idea as the best (pdoven) players earn the biggest salaries. You can probably get away with being transfer fe misers if you have the biggest wage bill (I.e. you can keep Walker instead of having to sell and replace with inferior Trippier) but its almost impossible to have sixth biggest wage bill and 6th to 8th biggest transfer budget and expect to keep on outperforming the market.

 

[billyiddo]

That's what happens when you want (e.g.) Mane and get (e.g.) N'Koudou though.

No excuse Poch should be expected to turn water in to wine

 

[glasgowspur]

Kane wasn't bought and Dele was a Pleat buy. I am not saying Poch didn't improve our first team. Clearly he did. My point is that ( outside the first X1) he largely failed to improve the many players we bought or our bright academy prospects.

Levy's business model assumed we had a fantastic coach and if young prospects were bought he would improve them. Then we could either sell them on at a profit or they would be assets in our first team. Same with the academy. Sadly, it didn't happen.

So are you admitting now that Levy made some of the 26 buys you keep quoting.

What about Dier then, or son. Did they not improve?

 

[Finney Is Back]

I am not saying Poch didn't improve our first team. Clearly he did. My point is that ( outside the first X1) he largely failed to improve the many players we bought or our bright academy prospects.

Levy's business model assumed we had a fantastic coach and if young prospects were bought he would improve them. Then we could either sell them on at a profit or they would be assets in our first team. Same with the academy. Sadly, it didn't happen.

Welcome to the business model of all but about 9 or 10 clubs in the World!

 

[Bishop]

That net spend figure is massively skewed by the sale of Coutinho and also they way they have netted off previous failures like Benteke (his sale goes as a benefit against Klopp)

It's not exactly skewed, they knew for at least 6 months if not earlier that Coutinho intended on leaving and knew that he would be going for a big fee. In that time they then bought Salah, VVD and Ox for a combined net of £18m in comparison to the fee they then banked for Coutinho.

Liverpool having been running excellent transfer business for the last 5 years, if we look at the figures they have been able to achieve for fringe players it is frankly remarkable.

Could we have done the same? Well yes I think we could have done similar to a smaller extent. If we accept that cashflow was poor due to the stadium build then we could have sacrificed one of our stars and maximised a selling figure and reinvested that to keep the lifeblood of the squad fresh. We had players at the time that I believe would have been of interest to others and who were mainly system players who would be relatively replaceable.

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[Pirate55]

So are you admitting now that Levy made some of the 26 buys you keep quoting.

What about Dier then, or son. Did they not improve?

I do not believe Levy buys/bought players without the managers sanction. To do so would be beyond foolhardy and in no ones interest.

Do you actually read my posts? I said that Poch improved our first XI . His failure was not to develop a squad or enhance our youth prospects. Hence, the poor predicament we now find ourselves in. The first XI are stalled and stale ( to put it mildly) and we have a squad of inadequate players to replace them.

 

[billyiddo]

It's not exactly skewed, they knew for at least 6 months if not earlier that Coutinho intended on leaving and knew that he would be going for a big fee. In that time they then bought Salad, VVD and Ox for a combined net of £18m in comparison to the fee they then banked for Coutinho.

Liverpool having been running excellent transfer business for the last 5 years, if we look at the figures they have been able to achieve for fringe players it is frankly remarkable.

Could we have done the same? Well yes I think we could have done similar to a smaller extent. If we accept that cashflow was poor due to the stadium build then we could have sacrificed one of our stars and maximised a selling figure and reinvested that to keep the lifeblood of the squad fresh. We had players at the time that I believe would have been of interest to others and who were mainly system players who would be relatively replaceable.

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We could have done similar and i believe it's exactly what Poch was calling for if we look back at the quotes he made around the time of his painful rebuild one (think there was something refering to selling players some may consider key?) we know he didn't get what he was asking for.

Ultimately having proven himself a more than capable manager in his first 3-4 seasons the club didn't back him in what he was requesting, whereas after 2-3 years at Liverpool the club bought Klopp world class players to shore up his calamitous defence and the rest is history.

Klopp and Liverpool are the perfect example of what should have happened at Spurs : manager proves himself > gets backed > success, whereas ours was more like : manager poves himself > doesn't get backed > failure.

There's a pretty clear and obvious lesson to be learned there

 

[billyiddo]

Just to add that we're now in a position where we have to back his successor quite big in the market before he has even proven himself here at the club, which is opening ourselves up to further problems.

 

[billyiddo]

Also worth noting that prior to backing/not backing Poch and Spurs were outperforming Klopp and Liverpool (with less to work with too)

 

[SteveAWOL]

Just to add that we're now in a position where we have to back his successor quite big in the market before he has even proven himself here at the club, which is opening ourselves up to further problems.

Hopefully the fact that Levy has wanted Mourinho to be Tottenham’s manager for over a decade means that José will have better luck in persuading our chairman to back the manager in transfer market... not as if Levy can use the stadium build as an excuse for shopping in the bargain bin any more.