OMT - Tottenham Hotspur vs Smoggies in FA Cup

[Bedfordspurs]

We can 3rd in May 2018 - and we limped over the line as we were creeking even then.
When we didn't spend we were what, 2/3 points higher than them.
They didn't spend this summer after finishing what 26/27 points ahead of us. One non-spender was doing it form a position of far greater strength, so i have no idea why people are trying to compare the two situations..

Just because it’s two teams making a decision not to buy anyone

 

[glorygloryeze]

Just because it’s two teams making a decision not to buy anyone

Yes, one in a MUCH, MUCH better position to justify it (footballing-wise)...

 

[billyiddo]

Indeed; which is what people said at the time, i.e. we couldn't afford to act like how Liverpool have just done so, in that we were in a far more precarious place...

Those same people were also under the false impression that the club were in a position to really strengthen the team, as already pointed out a few times now.

Sign no one or sign more squad filler... the issue was the finances weren't in place to do more than that.

Stuck in a circle this now so i thinkk it's probably run it's course.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Who said "flat"? Only you my friend.

Even when Davies played at West Ham, Aurier was bombing on (unlike, obviously, Davies). Verts obviously stays home, and it is all a bit more of a (GG-phrase coming up) "wonky"...call it what you like, Aurier's defensive shape and levels of responsibility are appalling if we want to keep clean sheets/games tight. Mourinho obviously took one look at everything, realized our defense needs serious help and decided to try and score more than the other lot, gambling on Aurier's attacking "skills" outweighing his poor focus and gaffes defensively. The time has come to call an end to it, if only because we have a CB who simply has no legs anymore either, so really cannot be fudging around like this back there.

Imagine if we had a right back, or even wing back, who knew shape, who worked well with his immediate team-mate (in this case Moura, who I am afraid to say costs us too thanks to a sheer lack of awareness/switching off) and redid not have to always (and I mean, always) rely on Sissoko to drop in and cover. Perhaps -just perhaps- we could play more creative deep lying midfielders on a regular basis.

You keep banging on about Mourinho asking Aurier to play that way. I have no doubt he is. But do you think he asks him to trot back when left out of shape, to make mistakes, and to generally brainfart 30% of the time he is asked to do something defensive?

I understand you appear to like him, but please understand the counter-point even if you don't agree with it. It is not a hard point to gauge.

Sorry I am a bit confused here. On one hand you seem to be criticising Aurier's positioning and on the other you seem to agree that he is playing the way that his manager wants him to play? So you need to decide which one of them is the problem I think.

Mourinho is asking Aurier to play high up the pitch and is asking his left back (be it Vertonghen or Davies) to tuck in and play like a third centre half. If you have a problem with this shape then surely your problem has to be with Mourinho instead of with Aurier who is simply playing as he is being asked to do? I also don't see a lack of effort from Aurier (and often more effort from him than many of the rest of the team) and, I don't think he has suffered any more brain farts than the rest of our team since Mourinho arrived either. Early on in his Spurs career he was very rash, but I think he has tempered that pretty well and improved this season). I think overall Aurier has probably been one of the better performers for Mourinho. I think if he wasn't playing as instructed by the manager then the manager would firstly be ripping him a new one from the touchline (which he isn't) and then subbing him off (which he isn't) and then picking somebody else as this first choice right sided player (which, again, he isn't).

From what I can tell Aurier has been asked to provide all of our attacking width on the right when we have possession. It seems to me that Mourinho is only really asking him to stay deep when the opposition's left back joins their attack. If I look at all of the goals we have conceded since Mourinho took over they are reasonably spaced around. I don't think more have come from our right than our left and I think goals through the centre probably number as many, if not more than those from the wings. If I look at Aurier's performances in the time under Jose I think he was poor against both Man Utd and Chelsea (but wasn't anywhere near alone in either game).

If you read many of my posts over a good length of time you will see that I have advocated us bringing in another right back for a good while, so it isn't true to say that I'm a fan of Aurier, I think we can certainly do better (just as we can in 4 or 5 positions). I just find it strange when players get dug out for performances in games when they haven't been part of the problem at all. Aurier was our best player at the weekend and I would rather performances were called out objectively based on that game, as opposed to bias formed from prior appearances. In this case Steff I think you have a negative bias against Aurier and a positive bias for Dele, both formed due to what you have seen previously.

 

[glasgowspur]

They are
Hence why they sell those players on
Norwich are an example
They sold Maddison who they bought cheap, developed and sold on. They will do the same with a few this season
Brentford do it all the time

Selling one player to Leicester or a couple of players to a league or two above isn't quite the same as building a CL or PL winning team on academy products and cheap imports is it?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Selling one player to Leicester or a couple of players to a league or two above isn't quite the same as building a CL or PL winning team on academy products and cheap imports is it?

Didn’t say it was
Don’t think anyone did

 

[thfcsteff]

Sorry I am a bit confused here. On one hand you seem to be criticising Aurier's positioning and on the other you seem to agree that he is playing the way that his manager wants him to play? So you need to decide which one of them is the problem I think.

Mourinho is asking Aurier to play high up the pitch and is asking his left back (be it Vertonghen or Davies) to tuck in and play like a third centre half. If you have a problem with this shape then surely your problem has to be with Mourinho instead of with Aurier who is simply playing as he is being asked to do? I also don't see a lack of effort from Aurier (and often more effort from him than many of the rest of the team) and, I don't think he has suffered any more brain farts than the rest of our team since Mourinho arrived either. Early on in his Spurs career he was very rash, but I think he has tempered that pretty well and improved this season). I think overall Aurier has probably been one of the better performers for Mourinho. I think if he wasn't playing as instructed by the manager then the manager would firstly be ripping him a new one from the touchline (which he isn't) and then subbing him off (which he isn't) and then picking somebody else as this first choice right sided player (which, again, he isn't).

From what I can tell Aurier has been asked to provide all of our attacking width on the right when we have possession. It seems to me that Mourinho is only really asking him to stay deep when the opposition's left back joins their attack. If I look at all of the goals we have conceded since Mourinho took over they are reasonably spaced around. I don't think more have come from our right than our left and I think goals through the centre probably number as many, if not more than those from the wings. If I look at Aurier's performances in the time under Jose I think he was poor against both Man Utd and Chelsea (but wasn't anywhere near alone in either game).

If you read many of my posts over a good length of time you will see that I have advocated us bringing in another right back for a good while, so it isn't true to say that I'm a fan of Aurier, I think we can certainly do better (just as we can in 4 or 5 positions). I just find it strange when players get dug out for performances in games when they haven't been part of the problem at all. Aurier was our best player at the weekend and I would rather performances were called out objectively based on that game, as opposed to bias formed from prior appearances. In this case Steff I think you have a negative bias against Aurier and a positive bias for Dele, both formed due to what you have seen previously.

First of all I stated my case re:Aurier clearly. You are choosing not to see it.

Secondly, you have now ignored three times my MATCH comments on his performance which were positive. I am actually baffled you cannot seem to see it; I said in plain English several times I thought he had a good game at the weekend.

I have no bias beyond what I see week in week out. That is why I can detail for you (as I have) the problems I have with him, yet recognise when he has a decent game.

BTW you appear to not even concern yourself with my comments about how he alters our team shape thus weakening the central areas. But I am done discussing mate, not because I have nothing to say but because you appear to either not be seeing it or are not interested in that POV.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Sorry I am a bit confused here. On one hand you seem to be criticising Aurier's positioning and on the other you seem to agree that he is playing the way that his manager wants him to play? So you need to decide which one of them is the problem I think.

Mourinho is asking Aurier to play high up the pitch and is asking his left back (be it Vertonghen or Davies) to tuck in and play like a third centre half. If you have a problem with this shape then surely your problem has to be with Mourinho instead of with Aurier who is simply playing as he is being asked to do? I also don't see a lack of effort from Aurier (and often more effort from him than many of the rest of the team) and, I don't think he has suffered any more brain farts than the rest of our team since Mourinho arrived either. Early on in his Spurs career he was very rash, but I think he has tempered that pretty well and improved this season). I think overall Aurier has probably been one of the better performers for Mourinho. I think if he wasn't playing as instructed by the manager then the manager would firstly be ripping him a new one from the touchline (which he isn't) and then subbing him off (which he isn't) and then picking somebody else as this first choice right sided player (which, again, he isn't).

From what I can tell Aurier has been asked to provide all of our attacking width on the right when we have possession. It seems to me that Mourinho is only really asking him to stay deep when the opposition's left back joins their attack. If I look at all of the goals we have conceded since Mourinho took over they are reasonably spaced around. I don't think more have come from our right than our left and I think goals through the centre probably number as many, if not more than those from the wings. If I look at Aurier's performances in the time under Jose I think he was poor against both Man Utd and Chelsea (but wasn't anywhere near alone in either game).

If you read many of my posts over a good length of time you will see that I have advocated us bringing in another right back for a good while, so it isn't true to say that I'm a fan of Aurier, I think we can certainly do better (just as we can in 4 or 5 positions). I just find it strange when players get dug out for performances in games when they haven't been part of the problem at all. Aurier was our best player at the weekend and I would rather performances were called out objectively based on that game, as opposed to bias formed from prior appearances. In this case Steff I think you have a negative bias against Aurier and a positive bias for Dele, both formed due to what you have seen previously.

He’s not good enough for us and personally I think he’s a macaron. That being said, we’ve had far worse full backs than him, it’s just that he sticks out like a sore thumb because the overall quality of our team has improved. Also find it bizarre when people blame him for the ineffectiveness of our CM’s. I won’t disagree that he exacerbates our issues but he is far from our only problem.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Liverpool's players had just won the CL (against us, ironically) whilst we had just scraped top 4, finishing 3rd. Big difference in situation wouldn't you say?

I think buying the kinds of players that were NEEDED would have shown ambition:

- a cm to take over from Dembele (who was creeking by April/May 2018)
- a defensive cm to take over from Wanyama and play with Dier
- a pacy forward to play with and/or alongside Kane

I actually think Grealish would have been a good signing, but again, were we going for him because we actually thought he'd help the team or because he looked like being a cheap buy we could flip and resale in 18 months or so? Again, all about the ambition...

I found the mockery of Grealish last summer very odd to say the least. @90291Spur in particular constantly made fun of the fact that people were critical of our lack of signings and used him as the poster boy to highlight the fact.

IIRC @Hootnow made a good point about some of our best signings coming from lower league clubs which made the belittling of Grealish even more bizarre.

 

[glasgowspur]

Didn’t say it was
Don’t think anyone did

The original post I responded to did,

That is my point. How much did we actually spend gross under Poch? That is my point. How much did we actually spend gross under Poch? If Poch was such a great coach, why didn't he either coach our academy players to greatness or make more success of the 26 signings? As to the players you mention, Poch had worked with Wanyama and Toby before at Soton, Dele was a Pleat inspired buy, Rose and Jan were already at the club before he arrived. I am not sure who recruited Dier and Trippier was a busted flush for us last season . I wouldn't exactly call his dealings in the transfer market a success

I will be extremely interested to see what success he has at his next club
I will be extremely interested to see what success he has at his next club

The laughable bit being that reaching a CL final and finishing in the top four for four years in a row despite, neither which we had ever done before, spending considerably less than than our rivals isn't any kind of success.
It was just luck apparently and he will fail elsewhere

 

[BrainOfLevy]

That is my point. How much did we actually spend gross under Poch? If Poch was such a great coach, why didn't he either coach our academy players to greatness or make more success of the 26 signings? As to the players you mention, Poch had worked with Wanyama and Toby before at Soton, Dele was a Pleat inspired buy, Rose and Jan were already at the club before he arrived. I am not sure who recruited Dier and Trippier was a busted flush for us last season . I wouldn't exactly call his dealings in the transfer market a success

I will be extremely interested to see what success he has at his next club.

I don’t think it matters that Toby or Wanyama played under him before or (and I really hate the description, as if being recommended a player means the coach gets no credit for developing him, but I’ll give it here just to make the broader point) that Dele was ‘Pleat buy’

The point is, near enough every player in our squad bar some random ‘Mitchell buys’ (you have to give me this as I’m giving you Pleat) over a period of 3-4 years played a higher standard of football than they had ever played in their careers before. Consistently. What was the common denominator? It was Poch.

Why did Trippier ultimately stagnate? He played the whole of last season injured, but he’s since gone to Atletico and is doing well. So was he a bad buy? Or are we blaming Poch for the performance having dipped, when it was dragged beyond a level he had ever achieved before by him in the first place?

It comes back to my broader point. I think this squad, as a unit together, is done. They have stagnated. I would love to be proven wrong but this is my opinion. And I think when Poch was calling for 2 years for a rebuild, we can’t put the make up of the squad at his feet. He worked within a structure and with a Chairman that had other ideas, to the ones Poch was stating publicly. We stored up the rebuild, as someone mentions above, to come when we were in a position of weakness rather than strength, because Levy believed that by hiring José the period of weakness could be avoided even longer. Because we’ve stagnated, no player is really looking like the player they could be because our spirit and our culture is no more. In other clubs I think most of our squad could play important roles.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I found the mockery of Grealish last summer very odd to say the least. @90291Spur in particular constantly made fun of the fact that people were critical of our lack of signings and used him as the poster boy to highlight the fact.

IIRC @Hootnow made a good point about some of our best signings coming from lower league clubs which made the belittling of Grealish even more bizarre.

It was just self-protection by some of them and to avoid having to deal with discussions that would have included any criticism some on here had of Levy/The board at the time.
I actually could have seen Grealish do well feeding the likes of Kane, Son or Alli....but i could also see him fail like many are due to not having the defensive issues in midfield sorted out...

 

[glorygloryeze]

Out of interst @BrainOfLevy why are you now of the opinion that this squad is 'done' when you didn't think so last spring?
You have/had been one of the most positive voices about our squad.

Imo, the issues are broadly the same, but our results are now matching our performances and i've actually thought that we've been like this since April 2018 actually...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Poch was (and we are) lucky that we haven’t had to invest in a 30 goal a season striker - that has saved us a packet and a LOT of pain. When you look at United with their signings, chelsea with there’s and arsenal too! Add neverton and now Villa as clubs that cannot find real goal steers unless they pay mega money and still hope they turn out ti be decent. Kane alone being here when Poch came in and developing under him has saved us £100m upwards

 

[glorygloryeze]

Poch was (and we are) lucky that we haven’t had to invest in a 30 goal a season striker - that has saved us a packet and a LOT of pain. When you look at United with their signings, chelsea with there’s and arsenal too! Add neverton and now Villa as clubs that cannot find real goal steers unless they pay mega money and still hope they turn out ti be decent. Kane alone being here when Poch came in and developing under him has saved us £100m upwards

This. We have been extremely lucky indeed on having Kane hit his best years with us and him having cost us nothing. Ultimately goals decide games and that's why strikers usually cost the most.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The original post I responded to did,

That is my point. How much did we actually spend gross under Poch? That is my point. How much did we actually spend gross under Poch? If Poch was such a great coach, why didn't he either coach our academy players to greatness or make more success of the 26 signings? As to the players you mention, Poch had worked with Wanyama and Toby before at Soton, Dele was a Pleat inspired buy, Rose and Jan were already at the club before he arrived. I am not sure who recruited Dier and Trippier was a busted flush for us last season . I wouldn't exactly call his dealings in the transfer market a success

I will be extremely interested to see what success he has at his next club
I will be extremely interested to see what success he has at his next club

The laughable bit being that reaching a CL final and finishing in the top four for four years in a row despite, neither which we had ever done before, spending considerably less than than our rivals isn't any kind of success.
It was just luck apparently and he will fail elsewhere

Well i deemed it a success. I never ever in my wildest dreams thought we could make a CL final

and we also fought for the title which again I never realistically expected.

the issue now of course is just that, expectations have changed

 

[Pirate55]

I don’t think it matters that Toby or Wanyama played under him before or (and I really hate the description, as if being recommended a player means the coach gets no credit for developing him, but I’ll give it here just to make the broader point) that Dele was ‘Pleat buy’

The point is, near enough every player in our squad bar some random ‘Mitchell buys’ (you have to give me this as I’m giving you Pleat) over a period of 3-4 years played a higher standard of football than they had ever played in their careers before. Consistently. What was the common denominator? It was Poch.

Why did Trippier ultimately stagnate? He played the whole of last season injured, but he’s since gone to Atletico and is doing well. So was he a bad buy? Or are we blaming Poch for the performance having dipped, when it was dragged beyond a level he had ever achieved before by him in the first place?

It comes back to my broader point. I think this squad, as a unit together, is done. They have stagnated. I would love to be proven wrong but this is my opinion. And I think when Poch was calling for 2 years for a rebuild, we can’t put the make up of the squad at his feet. He worked within a structure and with a Chairman that had other ideas, to the ones Poch was stating publicly. We stored up the rebuild, as someone mentions above, to come when we were in a position of weakness rather than strength, because Levy believed that by hiring José the period of weakness could be avoided even longer. Because we’ve stagnated, no player is really looking like the player they could be because our spirit and our culture is no more. In other clubs I think most of our squad could play important roles.

Even if I accept what you say, and I do agree that Poch developed certain players to a high standard, it really doesn't alter the fact that he failed to build a squad ( either from the 26 players signed during his tenure, or from our much praised academy). He was all about the first team, and when that started to fall apart, we were left incredibly bare. He built a good first team spirit but our club was barren beneath that. For me, that is why some players look broken and others shattered, because he didn't raise the standard of squad players to the same level, and consequently we always suffered when rotation was necessary or forced. He only had a plan A with the first team and Llorente seemed to be forced on him rather than a integrated part of a considered Plan B. If this was important to him, he either wouldn't have Llorente go , or at the very least make signing a replacement a priority rather than two midfielders and a wingback.

 

[Pirate55]

The original post I responded to did,

That is my point. How much did we actually spend gross under Poch? That is my point. How much did we actually spend gross under Poch? If Poch was such a great coach, why didn't he either coach our academy players to greatness or make more success of the 26 signings? As to the players you mention, Poch had worked with Wanyama and Toby before at Soton, Dele was a Pleat inspired buy, Rose and Jan were already at the club before he arrived. I am not sure who recruited Dier and Trippier was a busted flush for us last season . I wouldn't exactly call his dealings in the transfer market a success

I will be extremely interested to see what success he has at his next club
I will be extremely interested to see what success he has at his next club

The laughable bit being that reaching a CL final and finishing in the top four for four years in a row despite, neither which we had ever done before, spending considerably less than than our rivals isn't any kind of success.
It was just luck apparently and he will fail elsewhere

I didn't say he will fail elsewhere. What I said was, I will be interested to see what success he has at his next club. That is in no way to denigrate what he achieved at Spurs. I loved the ride and the spirit he created, which filled me with huge pride. For that, I will be forever grateful. I would nevertheless be interssted to see if it is possible to re-create those unique combination of circumstances elsewhere.

 

[Pirate55]

. If its as easy as training your academy players and cheap buys to be world beaters why isn't everyone doing it?
Pep and Jose, widely regarded as the two best managers of the last decade, why aren't they doing it instead of spending a billion pounds over their careers?

Er ..... they are.

 

[billyiddo]

Luckily for Poch he won't have to work under the same circumstances that he worked under here in his next job and will likely be able to build a team with financial backing.