• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

OMT - Tottenham Hotspur vs Smoggies in FA Cup

Man of the match


  • Total voters
    30
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
The average is low under Poch because we bought 26 ( yes 26 ! ) players. It was quantity over quality. The real failure though is that so few kicked on. And only Winks out of our promising youth academy has established himself ( Tactics Tim introduced Kane to the first team).

I feel i better point out that 26 signings over a 6 season period is just over 4 a season average - do you think that's a particularly high number of transfers? I think 4-5 a season would compare quite well to most of the league.

Out of that 26 we've signed Vorm and Gazzaniga for backup GK roles (24 players left) Clarke for the future (23) and we're also yet to see the 3 first team signings from this summer hit the ground so that leaves 20 players from the 5 seasons previous to judge him on.

Alderweireld Davies Trippier Dier Wanyama Sanchez (14) - all players that have contributed defensively to the first team and also most have been used as squad players for substantial periods also. We also had Wimmer (13) for a brief period who initially looked a good prospect and filled in admirably when Vertonghen was out injured, good enough so some supporters were calling for him to start in the not to distant future at one point - he was sold to Stoke at a profit and never looked the same player he did under Poch again. Foyth (12) a young prospect who could go either way at this point, still early days.

Sissoko (11) undoubtedly showed remarkable improvement from his first season where he barely looked like he had seen a football before to someone who fairly competently covers a couple of positions as a squad player and really has had to fill in as a first XI player due to injuries and lack of strengthening in the market the past couple of years.

Alli and Son (9) don't really need much explaining, both successful signings who improved their game during their time here, though fair to say Alli is seen to have tailed off the last couple of seasons, having to fill in at CM due to lack of investment in that position as well as injuries and suspensions no doubt contributing to that.

Llorente (8) signed as a back up player and performed that role as you'd expect, was written off by supporters initially but come the end of his brief stay he had chipped in enough to justify his signing.

Moura (7) i don't particularly rate the player, he was on the subs bench at PSG for a reason and I think he was probably expected/hoped to be a hidden gem that an elite (rich) club had overlooked and could compete at the same levels as Son - he's worth a squad position and contributed massively in the CL when filling in, is that enough to consider the signing a success? He was signed for a similar fee to Son but in a time when transfer fees had risen considerably - so really no surprise if all he amounts to is a squad player.

That leaves 6 (if my maths is correct) duds over a 5 year period, the likes of Stambouli Fazio and the N'brothers that were cheap punts as alternatives to more costly primary targets (Mussachio/Mane/Schneiderlin?) or just bad buys like Aurier and Janssen. I don't think 6 bad signings over a 5/6 year period is particularly out of the ordinary, especially when you factor in we are trying to compete with sides at the top of the table when spending less than half of our rivals do on average per man (as shown in previous posts) and spending a lot less on wages.

Wages being a key point, the rest of the top 6 give their reserves/back ups wages that we just can't get close to for back up/rotation players and it's for this reason that Poch, has focused on a first XI rather than a squad - his hand pretty much being forced by a lack of financial clout - players of the required quality who would be happy to sit on the bench at a top club want to be picking up big wages all the same, if they can start at clubs further down the table and pick up similar or higher wages where is the incentive?

Essentially our transfer policy was to sign the level of player our rivals would for their subs bench (see transfer fees and wages offered) and build a team greater than the sum of it's parts in order to compete with teams that can buy ready made top level talent - it had to be because we couldn't afford to go toe to toe with the rich/elite clubs and it is a policy that has served us well over the ENIC years, however it is not without it's flaws, namely that you're taking punts (educated or otherwise) that you can spot a diamond in the rough/beat the system basically and i think over a long enough time you're eventually going to have it catch up with you, that said the 6 in 5 years hit rate for bad signings under Poch would actually compare favourably to the 5 years previous or the 5 years before that and so on.

Really the bigger issue with transfers is the club not moving on players that need(ed) moving on - it has clearly prevented us from being able to bring others in as the squad is bloated with crocked/uninterested players taking up registered places or in the case of Eriksen and Alderweireld potentially key players with high value that could have been reinvested in top talent (Fernandes at Lisbon or Dybala last summer gone instance) i think if you look at our form this past year it is clearly the first team that is on the wane and looking at incoming transfers fir the years previous it's also clear there was no real investment in first XI players since we signed Son, so no players of the required quality to refresh a first XI held together by a merry band of low level squad level signings.


*wow that was a long toilet break
 
Last edited:
Pool bought Origi and Gomes.
They youth team also has been poor until last season when they won the youth cup
Let’s judge that when a few are playing first team. I genuinely believe clubs don’t have room anymore to gamble on their youth unless the player is genuinely exceptional due to the expect

Apologies. I stand corrected. I thought they came through their youth team as they weren't on the purchased list.
 
An interesting forensic analysis of the key points I am putting forward for discussion. At least you have bothered to read and understand my points. ( unlike some who go into some diatribe about me saying Poch didn't improve the first XI - which of course I did not!) . Adreesing each of the three areas in turn:

Recruitment: this has been an abject failure imo. Only Son has really improved our established First XI. When we were at our zenith, the team virtually picked itself with only rotation of full backs, a choice between Dier or Wanyama and the discussion at that time of whether Son was better than Lamela! The team was:

Lloris

Walker(Trips)
Toby
Verts
Rose (Davies)

Dembele
Wanyama/Dier

Son/Lamela
Eriksen
Dele

Kane

Our recruitment showed two areas most of us were alarmed at the lack of cover. A viable alternative to Eriksen and Kane. Our strange insistence on buying unproven wingers ( the N'twins, Sess, Clarke etc) which really didn't fit in with Poch's preferred style of play. Even those we spent ( relatively ) big money on were underwhelming - Sanchez, Sissoko, Moura, Aurier . And, while early days, our latest recruits, haven't exactly hit the ground running ( to be polite to them!)

While I agree this is principally the scouts problem, I don't think you can entirely absolve Poch from this area. During our transfer drought, he was quoted as saying something like, 'there is no point in buying players if the aren't better than the ones we have'. Furthermore, our recruitment of three Argentinians under him ( i.e. Gazza, Foyth and LoCelso) inclines me to believe he had a distinct influence on who we bought. No one outside the club knows for sure, and it is all speculation, but given Levy's close relationship with Poch ( until the final days) , I choose to believe Poch's fingerprints were all over our recruitment policy. I would suggest that others who think he didn't have any say are being naive.

Coaching of squad players: The key point you make is that some squad players were good "in the first three years". Coming into a settled side at the top of their game, doesn't surprise me that they looked 'decent' . However, when asked to make the final step up to regular first teamers, they have all almost universally failed. Dier and Sanchez have regressed alarmingly, Davies is, and always was, a limited attacking full back, Moura is inconsistent, Aurier is awful at defending, Winks has not consolidated his opportunities ( and I don't think anyone would have him as first choice when everyone is fit). By all accounts, Trippier and Edwards have found form away from us.

Youth players: I haven't studied other teams youth players in depth, but haven't TAA, Gomes and Origi all progressed from Liverpools youth team? Origi in particular, has made important contributions in key games. TAA and Gomes have established themselves as key members of the Liverpool team - even though they have bought many expensive players ( as you point out!). Seeing Liverpool's youth side beat a full Everton first team in the FA cup last week, surely you would have been impressed with their talent coming through?

At one time, everyone seemed to speak really highly of our youth prospects, but only Kane and Winks have emerged with any credit. Poch seemed reluctant to use Edwards, Onyama, Skipp, Pritchard, CCV, KWP. He never gave any of them a decent run in the side to assess their potential properly. He seemed to switch between keeping youth players as just squad members to make up the numbers , to sending them out on loan. Why we bought Clarke and loaned him back to Leeds, who then barely played him, is mystifying.

Anyway , all mainly speculation on my part, but I think interesting discussion points nevertheless.

First of all, no diatribe, I answered some specific points you were making (listed them as well as the points I was answering).

Your recruitment argument offers little context. It does not allow for the context and circumstances of the time, it does not allow for the loss of a DoF, it does not mention the players we know Poch wanted that he didn’t get. I think it is fair to say that when Inglethorpe bolted to Liverpool what, a decade ago, it was a significant loss in our youth development. Ugo’s passing too. McDermott is good but the structure around him was changed.
With regards to Skipp, at 19 he is on track. I’d argue that Amos would’ve made it with us but for the huge injury. Giorgiou, Oakley-Booth, Onomah, CCV and Walker-Peters were simply not top 4 quality. Is that Poch’s fault? Open to debate. I already listed all the young players he did improve.

Grealish, for me, was the final straw. We should’ve got that over the line early. Poch wanted him. He would’ve flourished under his coaching and is EXACTLY what we need IMO (I still think he is superior to Maddison by a distance). But we blew it.
 
Apologies. I stand corrected. I thought they came through their youth team as they weren't on the purchased list.
It the issue with comparing buying and selling against a certain mgr. buy a player under a manager A, sell under manager B... the benefit of that sale is seen under manager B
 
First of all, no diatribe, I answered some specific points you were making (listed them as well as the points I was answering).

Sorry , no - it was a diatribe concentrating almost exclusively on points I did not make. If you actually read my posts, you will find I did not say Poch did not improve those players you identified . I thought I was clear when I said he did improve players in the first XI. But hey ho - just see what you want to eh? No worries.
 
Your recruitment argument offers little context. It does not allow for the context and circumstances of the time, it does not allow for the loss of a DoF, it does not mention the players we know Poch wanted that he didn’t get. I think it is fair to say that when Inglethorpe bolted to Liverpool what, a decade ago, it was a significant loss in our youth development. Ugo’s passing too. McDermott is good but the structure around him was changed.
With regards to Skipp, at 19 he is on track. I’d argue that Amos would’ve made it with us but for the huge injury. Giorgiou, Oakley-Booth, Onomah, CCV and Walker-Peters were simply not top 4 quality. Is that Poch’s fault? Open to debate. I already listed all the young players he did improve.

Grealish, for me, was the final straw. We should’ve got that over the line early. Poch wanted him. He would’ve flourished under his coaching and is EXACTLY what we need IMO (I still think he is superior to Maddison by a distance). But we blew it.

Again, you seem to be absolving Poch from all culpability here. No it's not his fault our youth academy didn't deliver, people left or sadly passed away, players got injured, the structure changed, the players he wanted we didn't get, the players we did get he didn't want, he wasn't part of the transfer committee, he didn't choose the three Argentians we bought, etc etc. I don't have your insight into the inner workings of the club, but to suggest a key figure in our management structure was just a reactor to events he couldn't control is just naive imo.
 
Sorry , no - it was a diatribe concentrating almost exclusively on points I did not make. If you actually read my posts, you will find I did not say Poch did not improve those players you identified . I thought I was clear when I said he did improve players in the first XI. But hey ho - just see what you want to eh? No worries.

No and no. But as you say, hey ho and all that fun stuff.
 
Again, you seem to be absolving Poch from all culpability here. No it's not his fault our youth academy didn't deliver, people left or sadly passed away, players got injured, the structure changed, the players he wanted we didn't get, the players we did get he didn't want, he wasn't part of the transfer committee, he didn't choose the three Argentians we bought, etc etc. I don't have your insight into the inner workings of the club, but to suggest a key figure in our management structure was just a reactor to events he couldn't control is just naive imo.

If it is “naive” in YOUR opinion, then happy to wear the cloak of naivety...
 
Another poor performance and result. Really thought we could beat Boro easily. Instead we played badly and was fortunate to get away with the draw.
Now we are facing a replay which we could do without. Used to enjoy our Cup matches but no longer so. Now we are struggling even in Cup matches against lower division teams. Find it annoying we can't even lift our performance against a lowly Championship team like Boro. Mourinho is facing big problems now. The new manager effect only lasted a few matches and now he can't seem to lift the players. Mourinho needs to do something to lift our performance.
 
Another poor performance and result. Really thought we could beat Boro easily. Instead we played badly and was fortunate to get away with the draw.
Now we are facing a replay which we could do without. Used to enjoy our Cup matches but no longer so. Now we are struggling even in Cup matches against lower division teams. Find it annoying we can't even lift our performance against a lowly Championship team like Boro. Mourinho is facing big problems now. The new manager effect only lasted a few matches and now he can't seem to lift the players. Mourinho needs to do something to lift our performance.
I don't think we were fortunate at all. A draw was the least we deserved and we probabaly should've won the game.
 
Good mate of mine who is a long suffering Boro fan reckons they are as bad this season as he's ever remembered them. The fact we are even having to battle to beat such a demoralised team is worrying. I guess its the fa cup and accidents happen but seriously, with the squad of full internationals (from top teams) it's really not good enough if we struggle to put them away at home.
 
Good mate of mine who is a long suffering Boro fan reckons they are as bad this season as he's ever remembered them. The fact we are even having to battle to beat such a demoralised team is worrying. I guess its the fa cup and accidents happen but seriously, with the squad of full internationals (from top teams) it's really not good enough if we struggle to put them away at home.
Thought they had won 4 from 5 before playing us
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back