***OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v ACF Fiorentina***

[Kandi1977]

Agree. If we win all our remaining fixtures, we'll need someone to nab a draw from Leicester, who are obviously en route to winning their remaining 12.

I'll tell you who needs help: Chelsea need help (and tons of it) to make it into the top-4, because even if they win all their remaining games, 69 pts might not be enough. We're 2 points from the top with 12 games to go. I don't think we need any help, as long as we focus on our games and maintain a high level of performance.

And these things are not facts. If we were 2 points from the top with a game to go, then yes, it would be a fact that we would need help to win the title.

Please tell me how we can win the league if the team with 2 points more win all their games! And let me remind you all; it's not about probability, it's about what is the fact! Leicester won't win all their remaing games, but that doesn't exclude the fact that we need someone to take points off them to win the league. You guys can argue all you want but the is THE fudging FACT! I'm done here now.

 

[nayenezgani]

What an odd discussion.. Why are people so obsessed with hypothetical scenarios?

I believe we are a better all-round side than Leicester and will likely win more points than them before the season ends.

The real challenge in my mind will be earning more points than Arsenal.

Before all of that, let's just smash Fiorentina and get back to winning ways eh?

 

[DubaiSpur]

Right, Palace was unfortunate. No getting around that: it was a chance to go further in a competition that we could have won without the burden of as many games as it will take to win the Europa League.

But what's done is done. And our priorities should now be performing well in this competition. We probably won't win it, but getting to at least the quarter-finals should be our aim: not for any ephemeral, pride-based reason, but simply because we need to help keep the league's coefficient high enough to retain that 4th CL spot ahead of Serie A. Once we get there, we can re-evaluate our participation based on how our league campaign looks at that stage.

Either way, winning against Fiorentina just took on a lot more importance.

 

[braineclipse]

Please tell me how we can win the league if the team with 2 points more win all their games! And let me remind you all; it's not about probability, it's about what is the fact! Leicester won't win all their remaing games, but that doesn't exclude the fact that we need someone to take points off them to win the league. You guys can argue all you want but the is THE fudgeING FACT! I'm done here now.

It's a fact, but it's a really strange fact to bring up at this stage of the season with 12 games left to play in the league and another 8 games left in the EL for the eventual finalists. It's the kind of point people usually bring up a lot closer to the end. It's a fact, but not relevant to the discussion in any meaningful way. I mean if Arsenal were two points ahead of us and Leicester below us on goal difference it would be "in our hands" - that would be a fact, but would it make a title any more likely?

You brought up this fact not only as a fact, but in response to a discussion about the EL and league and probabilities. You have to expect some kind of response when bringing up what's essentially an irrelevant fact in a discussion like this. I mean I could bring up that in the league we have the same number of home and away games left whereas in the EL we have one more home game than away game left if we go all the way. It's a fact. It's true. But it's not really relevant.

Right, Palace was unfortunate. No getting around that: it was a chance to go further in a competition that we could have won without the burden of as many games as it will take to win the Europa League.

But what's done is done. And our priorities should now be performing well in this competition. We probably won't win it, but getting to at least the quarter-finals should be our aim: not for any ephemeral, pride-based reason, but simply because we need to help keep the league's coefficient high enough to retain that 4th CL spot ahead of Serie A. Once we get there, we can re-evaluate our participation based on how our league campaign looks at that stage.

Either way, winning against Fiorentina just took on a lot more importance.

The Fiorentina game remains second in importance after the Swansea game. By a very solid distance imo. As it would have been had we won against Palace.

At this point, with a chance of a league title I really don't think making the EL a bigger priority because of the league's coefficient doesn't make sense to me. What's more important? League title or league coefficient? One dwarfs the other...

 

[Whiffler]

Always after 90 minutes except in the League Cup, where it's only after 120 minutes..

Agreed, it takes effect at 90mins. Just worth adding for newer readers that, if play has to continue into ET, it takes effect at 120 as well.

Regs for this years comp are at :- http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles.../Regulations/02/23/69/59/2236959_DOWNLOAD.pdf

19.01

For matches played under the knockout system, if the two teams involved in a tie

score the same number of goals over the two legs, the team which scores more

away goals qualifies for the next stage. If this procedure does not produce a

result, i.e. if both teams score the same number of goals at home and away, two

15-minute periods of extra time are played at the end of the second leg. If both

teams score the same number of goals during extra time, away goals count

double (i.e. the visiting team qualifies). If no goals are scored during extra time,

kicks from the penalty mark determine which team qualifies for the next stage.
​

 

[paxtonwolf]

so really only a 0-0 draw is of any use to us, we need really to win. Liverpool's task is a tough tougher as in they have to win, and United need a win 1-0 or 3-1 or better.
I forgot away goals kick-in at 90mins

 

[glorygloryeze]

It's a fact, not an opinion. We need help from other teams to win the PL. That's not the case in the EL. Djeez! You guys need to argue about fudgeing everything! Even stone hard facts!

Maths not your strong point?!?

 

[harr1984]

It's a fact, but it's a really strange fact to bring up at this stage of the season with 12 games left to play in the league and another 8 games left in the EL for the eventual finalists. It's the kind of point people usually bring up a lot closer to the end. It's a fact, but not relevant to the discussion in any meaningful way. I mean if Arsenal were two points ahead of us and Leicester below us on goal difference it would be "in our hands" - that would be a fact, but would it make a title any more likely?

You brought up this fact not only as a fact, but in response to a discussion about the EL and league and probabilities. You have to expect some kind of response when bringing up what's essentially an irrelevant fact in a discussion like this. I mean I could bring up that in the league we have the same number of home and away games left whereas in the EL we have one more home game than away game left if we go all the way. It's a fact. It's true. But it's not really relevant.



The Fiorentina game remains second in importance after the Swansea game. By a very solid distance imo. As it would have been had we won against Palace.

At this point, with a chance of a league title I really don't think making the EL a bigger priority because of the league's coefficient doesn't make sense to me. What's more important? League title or league coefficient? One dwarfs the other...

Don't get me wrong league title is important, even if I still believe we wont be competing for it come the final couple of games but by all means make league a priority.

But league co-efficient is extremely important if we have aspirations of consistently qualifying for CL - We need four spots available because normal service will eventually resume, and getting top 3 would be a monumental task going forward(not that getting top 4 isn't difficult enough)....

 

[Baleforce]

the title is the cherry on the cake of CL qualification, it's very sweet, but it's not the bit that fills you up

 

[Rorschach]

the title is the cherry on the cake of CL qualification, it's very sweet, but it's not the bit that fills you up

I don't really see it like that myself. The title is the prize for me. CL qualification I see as jus a bonus to a title win, or probably it's more than likely it will be just the runners up prize.

 

[Craig_J]

Agreed, it takes effect at 90mins. Just worth adding for newer readers that, if play has to continue into ET, it takes effect at 120 as well.

Regs for this years comp are at :- http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles.../Regulations/02/23/69/59/2236959_DOWNLOAD.pdf

19.01

For matches played under the knockout system, if the two teams involved in a tie

score the same number of goals over the two legs, the team which scores more

away goals qualifies for the next stage. If this procedure does not produce a

result, i.e. if both teams score the same number of goals at home and away, two

15-minute periods of extra time are played at the end of the second leg. If both

teams score the same number of goals during extra time, away goals count

double (i.e. the visiting team qualifies). If no goals are scored during extra time,

kicks from the penalty mark determine which team qualifies for the next stage.
​

That rules always bothered me, why do away goals count in extra time? Why is it that one team gets half an hour extra to score a goal which is twice as important? Once a game goes into extratime the awaygoals rule should then disappear.

 

[Baleforce]

That rules always bothered me, why do away goals count in extra time? Why is it that one team gets half an hour extra to score a goal which is twice as important? Once a game goes into extratime the awaygoals rule should then disappear.

I take your point, it does uneven things, if they are a score match after 180 minutes that should be seen as a reset point

personally i'd get rid of the away goals rule completely

 

[Whiffler]

Home advantage for more time, home advantage knowing what score is good, home advantage for penalty time probably cancels it out.

 

[Baleforce]

Home advantage for more time, home advantage knowing what score is good, home advantage for penalty time probably cancels it out.

i'm not sure home advantage is a thing these days, this is an interesting read,

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...ly-six-home-wins-in-the-premier-league-so-far

 

[Lemonade Money]

personally i'd get rid of the away goals rule completely

I think the reason it's there is to stop the away teams parking the bus, so it's a good thing up to the disparity of extra time.

 

[Baleforce]

I think the reason it's there is to stop the away teams parking the bus, so it's a good thing up to the disparity of extra time.

these days the home team is just as likely to park the bus, not that there is anything wrong with that, defending is football too

originally I think it was to make up for the disparity in conditions and harsh travel teams would face across europe

 

[DubaiSpur]

It's a fact, but it's a really strange fact to bring up at this stage of the season with 12 games left to play in the league and another 8 games left in the EL for the eventual finalists. It's the kind of point people usually bring up a lot closer to the end. It's a fact, but not relevant to the discussion in any meaningful way. I mean if Arsenal were two points ahead of us and Leicester below us on goal difference it would be "in our hands" - that would be a fact, but would it make a title any more likely?

You brought up this fact not only as a fact, but in response to a discussion about the EL and league and probabilities. You have to expect some kind of response when bringing up what's essentially an irrelevant fact in a discussion like this. I mean I could bring up that in the league we have the same number of home and away games left whereas in the EL we have one more home game than away game left if we go all the way. It's a fact. It's true. But it's not really relevant.



The Fiorentina game remains second in importance after the Swansea game. By a very solid distance imo. As it would have been had we won against Palace.

At this point, with a chance of a league title I really don't think making the EL a bigger priority because of the league's coefficient doesn't make sense to me. What's more important? League title or league coefficient? One dwarfs the other...

It's a 'fall between two stools' thing. I've always been adamant that 70 points should be our primary target, with anything beyond a bonus. Ergo, planning should be based around that aim, which includes helping secure that 4th spot in anticipation of similar campaigns down the line.

Throwing it all away to dash for the league title, given our fifty-five year wait for another one, just seems like setting up for disappointment to me.

 

[braineclipse]

It's a 'fall between two stools' thing. I've always been adamant that 70 points should be our primary target, with anything beyond a bonus. Ergo, planning should be based around that aim, which includes helping secure that 4th spot in anticipation of similar campaigns down the line.

Throwing it all away to dash for the league title, given our fifty-five year wait for another one, just seems like setting up for disappointment to me.

I'm not saying "throw it all away". I might have been unclear, I'm not sure. But that's certainly not what I meant.

 

[paxtonwolf]

It's a 'fall between two stools' thing. I've always been adamant that 70 points should be our primary target, with anything beyond a bonus. Ergo, planning should be based around that aim, which includes helping secure that 4th spot in anticipation of similar campaigns down the line.

Throwing it all away to dash for the league title, given our fifty-five year wait for another one, just seems like setting up for disappointment to me.

Looking at the last dozen fixtures 100% sure 70pts will be enough for 4th. United and WHU would need to get 30pts out of the last 36 to eclipse that total. Just cant see any evidence either side could string a run like that together. I would even so as far to say 67pts will be enough. (If we continue to play to the standard we have done we could achieve that total before the Chelsea match)
With our GD, which I cant express enough how massive it could be this season, 71or 72pts might could secure 3rd, which in itself would be a great achievement in my eyes.
Anything above 3rd would be a dream

 

[alekaras]

It's a 'fall between two stools' thing. I've always been adamant that 70 points should be our primary target, with anything beyond a bonus. Ergo, planning should be based around that aim, which includes helping secure that 4th spot in anticipation of similar campaigns down the line.

Throwing it all away to dash for the league title, given our fifty-five year wait for another one, just seems like setting up for disappointment to me.

So you're saying if we aim for 4th, we're more likely to get 4th, but if we aim for 1st were more likely to finish below 4th?