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O/T The England Thread

Jordinho said:
Cleverley and Wheelchair are likely to walk into any squad once fit and that is mostly due to the hype built up around them, which stems from them coming
through at United and Arsenal. Like Gerrard and Lampard, once in they're there to stay, regardless of form.
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hype:) they are very good players, and until someone better comes along i guess they will be picked. Rather them than Rodwell and Henderson for example
 
DMac said:
I think they could in a 4-3-3, obviously they can't in basically any other formation. Lampard can play a deeper role than Gerrard though and is an overall better player now.

The question is why would you want to play these two in midfield given the other, younger possibilities. I think Lampard can still play a role in the team, I think Gerrard is just past it and shouldn't be playing for England anymore, never mind being made captain.
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The point is, we never got past a quarter final with them in their prime. They are all over the hill now so what chance do we have of winning with them now? They've had more than enough chances to prove us wrong.
 
Jurgen the German said:
The point is, we never got past a quarter final with them in their prime. They are all over the hill now so what chance do we have of winning with them now? They've had more than enough chances to prove us wrong.
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and in tournament history, how many semi finals have England actually reached? How can you lay the blame on 2 players when as a nation England over many many years have failed to progress to the last four, sometimes not getting anywhere in fact. Ever considered poor defending, average goalkeeping, strikers missing chances as other reasons that may have contributed to England not performing?

I really dont understand the stick that Gerrard and Lampard get. Actually, iirc Englands record with both in the team is better than when either or both are not playing. Ok, neither is a Robson or a Gascoigne, a Hoddle or a Charlton, but they are still good players and have proved effective for England. Of course they have made more of an impact at club level than for England, but that can be thrown at many players who have done the same down the years
 
I don't think the issue is with them individually, it's to do with them playing together in a centre midfiled 2. Had we changed system to accomodate them i.e. Carrick/Barry/A.n.other sitting behind both then maybe we could have got further?
 
indianspur said:
and in tournament history, how many semi finals have England actually reached? How can you lay the blame on 2 players when as a nation England over many many years have failed to progress to the last four, sometimes not getting anywhere in fact. Ever considered poor defending, average goalkeeping, strikers missing chances as other reasons that may have contributed to England not performing?

I really dont understand the stick that Gerrard and Lampard get. Actually, iirc Englands record with both in the team is better than when either or both are not playing. Ok, neither is a Robson or a Gascoigne, a Hoddle or a Charlton, but they are still good players and have proved effective for England. Of course they have made more of an impact at club level than for England, but that can be thrown at many players who have done the same down the years
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I didn't lay the blame on those two alone. If you go back a page, I said that the old guard collectively should be moved on.

The fact is, none of the "golden generation' have played consistently well in a tournament with the exception of Rooney and Lampard in 2004.

Since you asked my specifically about Lampard and Gerrard, I will address it. How many goals has Lampard scored in World Cups? Big fat zero! If you look at the last 3 tournaments, we have been overrun in midfield. Granted Rooney has also been very poor in tournaments for the most part. The two players are too similar. Some might argue they might be able to play together now as one can sit deep whilst the other bombs forward, but the instinct of both players is to venture forwards. Players like Pirlo deserve to keep being picked for Italy because he is still class and he's also won a world cup so he's earned the right to be picked even in the later years of his career.

The two of them playing together hasn't worked. Why is it going to work all of a sudden now?
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
I don't think the issue is with them individually, it's to do with them playing together in a centre midfiled 2. Had we changed system to accomodate them i.e. Carrick/Barry/A.n.other sitting behind both then maybe we could have got further?
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I think the midfield should have been built around Gerrard, he has always been the better player of the two.
 
This debate should have ended the minute we got knocked out of the tournament in South Africa. It was sooooooooooooooooooo painfully tinkle poor that none of that golden generation bar Ashley Cole should've still been considered going forward. Capello said we would move on and freshen things up.. we played a few youngsters in a friendly against someone awful then all the old guard were back for the qualifiers, breezing through the group stages like nothing needed to change etc..

England games really do depress me nowadays. It's like the lowest of the low in terms of entertainment that football has to offer.


Still, I'll always have Euro 96 haha
 
Been away so didnt see any footie over the weekend, just saw Johnson was in in front of Walker again, anybody know exactly how and why ???
 
dingdongo said:
This debate should have ended the minute we got knocked out of the tournament in South Africa. It was sooooooooooooooooooo painfully tinkle poor that none of that golden generation bar Ashley Cole should've still been considered going forward. Capello said we would move on and freshen things up.. we played a few youngsters in a friendly against someone awful then all the old guard were back for the qualifiers, breezing through the group stages like nothing needed to change etc..

England games really do depress me nowadays. It's like the lowest of the low in terms of entertainment that football has to offer.


Still, I'll always have Euro 96 haha
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These are good comments. i think the problem for england is that we simply dont have good enough players at the moment to completely drop the old guard completely. if we did so and didnt qualify for the tournaments then everyone would be calling for them to be recalled. just like before the euros when everyone was going mental about ferdinand not being in the squad. now look at him, injured again. roy made the right call there.
I agree about Euro 96 being amazing and perhaps even france 98 there was still something about england but since then not much. The nadir being WC2006 and WC2010. i actually thought at the euros however that the sweden game was one of the more exciting england games in a long time. to actually come back and win was quite exciting, i thought at least. shame we then couldnt build any momementum despite finisihing top of the group
 
As we've seen at club level the dominant forces in football will remain dominant by keeping their pillars in the team and building around them - Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard and Terry have all been this for their club and have all won the CL, probably the biggest prize in world football, along with plenty of league titles between them (LOL Gerrard). The problem is, England aren't a dominant force.

Another thing often seen in club football is the ability for teams to emerge and beat supposedly superior opposition consistently to overachieve. Back-to-back promotions for Norwich and Southampton, as well as the work done at Swansea, Tottenham and further afield Barca and Dortmund are good examples of teams punching above their weight (although Liverpool's decline was very helpful for us). The common factor with all these teams is the relatively young, malleable squads they possessed. Young players, especially those who haven't been there and won everything, are much more likely to all buy into the same system and work as a team.

The senior England players have already won it all at club level, and so take a sort of arrogance into the international stage. They must know best as they've won every trophy in club football. But their styles are set in stone, they've played the same, successful way for years. AVB found that out when he was at Chelsea. The problem is, that style is dependent on having world class foreigners around them, and England don't have enough quality to impose themselves on their opposition in the way that Chelsea and Man U do. At least not against big teams at tournament level. In the qualifiers we always are a much better side than most of the other teams in the group, especially in the WCQs, so the illusion of superiority is maintained, with the star players able to continue to play as if they're the big team just like at club level, despite their team mates being significantly worse. The arrogance I mentioned earlier seems justified when we win 9 or 10 qualifiers.

But then come competition time, and reasonably difficult teams, we can't boss other teams like we do in qualifiers, or Chelsea and Man U do every week (even against most big clubs), the stars aren't used to that and they flop.

Obviously part of the reason that young club sides do well is the fact that they train together every day, but the principle is still applicable to the international setup. Croatia and Russia became serious threats to the big teams 5 or 6 years ago, and obviously that's in part due to the talent they possess, but at the time both had relatively young and unknown teams. Also, club partnerships in those countries (especially Russia) were often reproduced in the national team, something which our managers have neglected in the past that can make up a lot of understanding lost though the lack of training sessions together as a national team.

Dropping most of the big names would do the England squad a world of good IMO. You still need experience in tournament football, but I think living off the adrenaline of youth, and having something to prove are equally if not more important. Moving the responsibility of experience onto new, more understated shoulders would be good. Carrick is a class player regardless of how many games he plays for Man Utd, can't believe he didn't go to the Euros, he is the sort of player we should be looking to make central to our plans for 2014.
 
markysimmo said:
Shows that nobody gives two fudges about them anymore, have let us down too any times and the team too full of ****s, although not so many tonight
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Like the way Tydlesley tried to build the crowd up when they showed the aerial shot, when you could clearly see the stadium was half-full!
 
paxtonwolf said:
Like the way Tydlesley tried to build the crowd up when they showed the aerial shot, when you could clearly see the stadium was half-full!
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They were trying to spin it on the Sunday Supplement saying it would be the highest attendance for a qualifying game this week. They also tried to knock the nations like Germany, Spain and Italy who play in different venues from game to game as if they only do it because they couldn't fill a ground like Wembley every game.
 
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