Ingerlund

[Raziel]

Its amazing how many goals he has scored for England when you consider he's played with so many players who do not appear to want or are intelligent to pass to him, it's been the pattern for a long time.

The problem honestly is

- For England, Kane should be the pivot (and certainly should have been for last 7 years)
- However, most of the supplying players, Sterling (funny @Gutter Boy), Saka, Grealish, even Foden come from City/Arsenal who for the majority of that time don't play with a central striker (more the false 9, rotational front line), and clearly they aren't being given instructions to counter that.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The problem honestly is

- For England, Kane should be the pivot (and certainly should have been for last 7 years)
- However, most of the supplying players, Sterling (funny @Gutter Boy), Saka, Grealish, even Foden come from City/Arsenal who for the majority of that time don't play with a central striker (more the false 9, rotational front line), and clearly they aren't being given instructions to counter that.

But those teams do play possession ball
That’s a missing factor here

 

[parklane1]

i know i have said it before but a few of our players are not as good as they are built up to be [ mainly by the press]. That does not mean we are a poor team [ we are not] but they are overhyped and imo have shown that this games.

Not taking any blame away from Southgate by saying that but to me it seems he has picked players on reputation and asked them to do what is obviously hard for them, one example IMO is that Foden and Bellingham do not make a good partnership in the middle.

 

[Grays_1890]

i know i have said it before but a few of our players are not as good as they are built up to be [ mainly by the press]. That does not mean we are a poor team [ we are not] but they are overhyped and imo have shown that this games.

Not taking any blame away from Southgate by saying that but to me it seems he has picked players on reputation and asked them to do what is obviously hard for them, one example IMO is that Foden and Bellingham do not make a good partnership in the middle.

I think some are but as you allude to are being asked to play roles that do not play to their strengths. This tournament started out with a RB at LB and Foden playing LW. In my mind you want to play the players, your best players, to their strengths and then if that means hard decisions on other players with a high profile, so be it. Southgate fell into the aged trap of trying to shoehorn in players on name and it was just a mess.

Get Bellingham up close to Kane and ghosting into the box as he does with Real, as Dele did so well with him for years, its a similar role, work to a strength where you get Foden into the box as much as you can causing chaos, thats where he is a master at his role, not getting the ball 30 yards from his own goal.

Even Saka, LB and last night some kind of AUX RB with Walker......I agree some are not as good as made out, I also think we are absolutely terrible at replicating roles for them and playing to strengths.

 

[Gutter Boy]

What do we having going forwards?

GKs - Pickford with Henderson as back-up is fine

Defence - Guehi alongside Stones or Branthwaite is fine. Walker and Trippier will retire now. Reece James probably at RB, Tyrick Mitchell at LB? Lewis or Livramento maybe?

Midfield - Wharton into one of the CM roles. Scott, Gray, Elliott and McAtee maybe coming into the mix as well. Strong at AM

Forward - We're going to have to stick with Kane + Watkins and Toney, unless someone like Lankshear does 'do a Kane' over the next 18 months.


So FB the main problem. But actually a decent squad to work with, with no major impending losses (except Walker retiring).

 

[spurspinter1]

That’s already out there
Southgate said it after the game
What he hasn’t said is why his midfield and defence can’t pass well enough

Even with perfect precise passing you can't find someone who is plodding around like a dingdonghead that's wandered on the field from the stands.

I want to say the team can hold their head high up but Kane stands out as someone who severely underperformed, it can be called a media narrative but he repeatedly drags his team down in finals - If he's not fit enough to make an impact on the game, don't play him. That's on Southgate / Poch as it's their choice ultimately. I guess the idea to keep pumping long balls at him during the tournament was a managerial one as well, if it was Toney on the pitch I'd understand it.

Within 5 minutes of Watkins yesterday coming on a ball was played behind the defense and suddenly the defenders actually looked under pressure and as if they were in a game. Same thing happened in the semi.

There's a reason Kane hasn't won anything and it's not because of a media narrative, and I hope moving forwards we're going to play our talismanic strike regardless of impact like some Poland lite with Lewandoski, we've got too much talent elsewhere to do that. If someone made a highlights reel of Kane's performances in both Euro finals and the CL final it'd probably be about a minute long. I appreciate people will want to protect him as he is one of our own but in a system with Bellingham and Foden, I don't think Kane is the best for the set up and we give up any idea of forward pressure. Time to move on.

The future is bright though.

 

[parklane1]

I think some are but as you allude to are being asked to play roles that do not play to their strengths. This tournament started out with a RB at LB and Foden playing LW. In my mind you want to play the players, your best players, to their strengths and then if that means hard decisions on other players with a high profile, so be it. Southgate fell into the aged trap of trying to shoehorn in players on name and it was just a mess.

Get Bellingham up close to Kane and ghosting into the box as he does with Real, as Dele did so well with him for years, its a similar role, work to a strength where you get Foden into the box as much as you can causing chaos, thats where he is a master at his role, not getting the ball 30 yards from his own goal.

Even Saka, LB and last night some kind of AUX RB with Walker......I agree some are not as good as made out, I also think we are absolutely terrible at replicating roles for them and playing to strengths.

Good summing up especially the first bit.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Even with perfect precise passing you can't find someone who is plodding around like a dingdonghead that's wandered on the field from the stands.

I want to say the team can hold their head high up but Kane stands out as someone who severely underperformed, it can be called a media narrative but he repeatedly drags his team down in finals - If he's not fit enough to make an impact on the game, don't play him. That's on Southgate / Poch as it's their choice ultimately. I guess the idea to keep pumping long balls at him during the tournament was a managerial one as well, if it was Toney on the pitch I'd understand it.

Within 5 minutes of Watkins yesterday coming on a ball was played behind the defense and suddenly the defenders actually looked under pressure and as if they were in a game. Same thing happened in the semi.

There's a reason Kane hasn't won anything and it's not because of a media narrative, and I hope moving forwards we're going to play our talismanic strike regardless of impact like some Poland lite with Lewandoski, we've got too much talent elsewhere to do that. If someone made a highlights reel of Kane's performances in both Euro finals and the CL final it'd probably be about a minute long. I appreciate people will want to protect him as he is one of our own but in a system with Bellingham and Foden, I don't think Kane is the best for the set up and we give up any idea of forward pressure. Time to move on.

The future is bright though.

Harsh but true

 

[Grays_1890]

Even with perfect precise passing you can't find someone who is plodding around like a dingdonghead that's wandered on the field from the stands.

I want to say the team can hold their head high up but Kane stands out as someone who severely underperformed, it can be called a media narrative but he repeatedly drags his team down in finals - If he's not fit enough to make an impact on the game, don't play him. That's on Southgate / Poch as it's their choice ultimately. I guess the idea to keep pumping long balls at him during the tournament was a managerial one as well, if it was Toney on the pitch I'd understand it.

Within 5 minutes of Watkins yesterday coming on a ball was played behind the defense and suddenly the defenders actually looked under pressure and as if they were in a game. Same thing happened in the semi.

There's a reason Kane hasn't won anything and it's not because of a media narrative, and I hope moving forwards we're going to play our talismanic strike regardless of impact like some Poland lite with Lewandoski, we've got too much talent elsewhere to do that. If someone made a highlights reel of Kane's performances in both Euro finals and the CL final it'd probably be about a minute long. I appreciate people will want to protect him as he is one of our own but in a system with Bellingham and Foden, I don't think Kane is the best for the set up and we give up any idea of forward pressure. Time to move on.

The future is bright though.

And I love Kane despite some playful goading on the Bayern thread BUT we can't build a side round someone who is 31 this month going into the next World Cup, its time to work an alternative plan

 

[Jurgen the German]

Winning a header from a keeper boot up field… that’s the sophistication of the football
He didn’t hold it up because a lot of the time it was booted at him rather than passed
When it was given to him centrally he turned into two defenders who cleaned it up

honestly the issue starts way back with how we choose to play

Bedford he was poor in every game. He didn’t look dangerous or create anything, he didn’t put any pressure on defenders. At this point I’m not even surprised when he doesn’t play well for England or in a final. I’d actually be surprised if we reached the next World Cup final and he has a good game regardless of whether we play to his strengths or not.

 

[Raziel]

Even with perfect precise passing you can't find someone who is plodding around like a dingdonghead that's wandered on the field from the stands.

I want to say the team can hold their head high up but Kane stands out as someone who severely underperformed, it can be called a media narrative but he repeatedly drags his team down in finals - If he's not fit enough to make an impact on the game, don't play him. That's on Southgate / Poch as it's their choice ultimately. I guess the idea to keep pumping long balls at him during the tournament was a managerial one as well, if it was Toney on the pitch I'd understand it.

Within 5 minutes of Watkins yesterday coming on a ball was played behind the defense and suddenly the defenders actually looked under pressure and as if they were in a game. Same thing happened in the semi.

There's a reason Kane hasn't won anything and it's not because of a media narrative, and I hope moving forwards we're going to play our talismanic strike regardless of impact like some Poland lite with Lewandoski, we've got too much talent elsewhere to do that. If someone made a highlights reel of Kane's performances in both Euro finals and the CL final it'd probably be about a minute long. I appreciate people will want to protect him as he is one of our own but in a system with Bellingham and Foden, I don't think Kane is the best for the set up and we give up any idea of forward pressure. Time to move on.

The future is bright though.

You can claim Kane didn't have a good tournament, you can even stretch that to Kane is poor in finals but it doesn't change the fact

The reason England isn't good enough has nothing to do with Kane, it's what a lot of people have covered in the last couple of pages
- Poor team selection (i.e. right mix, players in the right positions, etc.)
- Lack of tactics that make sense
- Poor tempo, lack of intent to dominate the game

All of those are on the manager and not an individual player.

I also disagree the team can hold their head up high, they scrapped their way to a final via the easiest of draws and very few of them came out with a better reputation than walking in.

 

[P.D.]

You can claim Kane didn't have a good tournament, you can even stretch that to Kane is poor in finals but it doesn't change the fact

The reason England isn't good enough has nothing to do with Kane, it's what a lot of people have covered in the last couple of pages
- Poor team selection (i.e. right mix, players in the right positions, etc.)
- Lack of tactics that make sense
- Poor tempo, lack of intent to dominate the game

All of those are on the manager and not an individual player.

I also disagree the team can hold their head up high, they scrapped their way to a final via the easiest of draws and very few of them came out with a better reputation than walking in.

Yeah even Watkins didn't look amazing when he came on, a bit more of a threat with his running yes but not like he created or got many chances at all.

Like you say we need to change the tactics and get the right players in. Some style of 433 probably suits us better with 2 high wingers and would allow Foden or Bellingham (not both) to have a freeish role. They're different players but both operate in the same space, not sure both will work well together.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Even with perfect precise passing you can't find someone who is plodding around like a dingdonghead that's wandered on the field from the stands.

I want to say the team can hold their head high up but Kane stands out as someone who severely underperformed, it can be called a media narrative but he repeatedly drags his team down in finals - If he's not fit enough to make an impact on the game, don't play him. That's on Southgate / Poch as it's their choice ultimately. I guess the idea to keep pumping long balls at him during the tournament was a managerial one as well, if it was Toney on the pitch I'd understand it.

Within 5 minutes of Watkins yesterday coming on a ball was played behind the defense and suddenly the defenders actually looked under pressure and as if they were in a game. Same thing happened in the semi.

There's a reason Kane hasn't won anything and it's not because of a media narrative, and I hope moving forwards we're going to play our talismanic strike regardless of impact like some Poland lite with Lewandoski, we've got too much talent elsewhere to do that. If someone made a highlights reel of Kane's performances in both Euro finals and the CL final it'd probably be about a minute long. I appreciate people will want to protect him as he is one of our own but in a system with Bellingham and Foden, I don't think Kane is the best for the set up and we give up any idea of forward pressure. Time to move on.

The future is bright though.

Watkins running looked good
His 4 touches and one was from the centre doesnt (that’s one touch every 15 minutes)
That’s because the team can’t or don’t pass
Kane is injured but when he actually had a ball to feet he managed shots
Something that we missed massively from others
It’s not about defending him… that’s easy when yo7 can just quote his goal record and another golden boot
It’s more about looking at why we failed and the inability to pass and retain the ball is key to that

 

[Jurgen the German]

Even with perfect precise passing you can't find someone who is plodding around like a dingdonghead that's wandered on the field from the stands.

I want to say the team can hold their head high up but Kane stands out as someone who severely underperformed, it can be called a media narrative but he repeatedly drags his team down in finals - If he's not fit enough to make an impact on the game, don't play him. That's on Southgate / Poch as it's their choice ultimately. I guess the idea to keep pumping long balls at him during the tournament was a managerial one as well, if it was Toney on the pitch I'd understand it.

Within 5 minutes of Watkins yesterday coming on a ball was played behind the defense and suddenly the defenders actually looked under pressure and as if they were in a game. Same thing happened in the semi.

There's a reason Kane hasn't won anything and it's not because of a media narrative, and I hope moving forwards we're going to play our talismanic strike regardless of impact like some Poland lite with Lewandoski, we've got too much talent elsewhere to do that. If someone made a highlights reel of Kane's performances in both Euro finals and the CL final it'd probably be about a minute long. I appreciate people will want to protect him as he is one of our own but in a system with Bellingham and Foden, I don't think Kane is the best for the set up and we give up any idea of forward pressure. Time to move on.

The future is bright though.

Agree with every word of this. Can’t even lean on the fact that he’s our go to penalty taker anymore as we won a shootout without him and have at least 3-4 players who are also the penalty takers for their clubs

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You can claim Kane didn't have a good tournament, you can even stretch that to Kane is poor in finals but it doesn't change the fact

The reason England isn't good enough has nothing to do with Kane, it's what a lot of people have covered in the last couple of pages
- Poor team selection (i.e. right mix, players in the right positions, etc.)
- Lack of tactics that make sense
- Poor tempo, lack of intent to dominate the game

All of those are on the manager and not an individual player.

I also disagree the team can hold their head up high, they scrapped their way to a final via the easiest of draws and very few of them came out with a better reputation than walking in.

Guehi did
Palmer did
Mainoo did
Pickford was par
Stones was par
Saka will be talked of as though he had a good tournament but IMO he really didn’t
That’s it I reckon

 

[Jurgen the German]

You can claim Kane didn't have a good tournament, you can even stretch that to Kane is poor in finals but it doesn't change the fact

The reason England isn't good enough has nothing to do with Kane, it's what a lot of people have covered in the last couple of pages
- Poor team selection (i.e. right mix, players in the right positions, etc.)
- Lack of tactics that make sense
- Poor tempo, lack of intent to dominate the game

All of those are on the manager and not an individual player.

I also disagree the team can hold their head up high, they scrapped their way to a final via the easiest of draws and very few of them came out with a better reputation than walking in.

Agree to a point but Kane did nothing for Spurs in big games when the team was built to his strengths. I don’t know if he freezes or can’t handle the pressure but he doesn’t embrace competition and those high pressure moments like Nico Williams and Yamal do for example. I hope Southgate steps down and we get a manager who plays attacking football and plays to Kane’s strengths but I’m not expecting much difference in terms of output from Kane in finals because he’s an empty shirt based on the finals he has played in so far.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Bedford he was poor in every game. He didn’t look dangerous or create anything, he didn’t put any pressure on defenders. At this point I’m not even surprised when he doesn’t play well for England or in a final. I’d actually be surprised if we reached the next World Cup final and he has a good game regardless of whether we play to his strengths or not.

Do you men’s the final or the competition?
England won’t do anything until we get in a coach who can do just that..l coach a team into a unit
Kane didn’t create anything … that’s the job of the 10s that played… they created nothing
He didn’t put pressure on defenders because the king ball was an easy fix for them. It’s a daft tactic
What we saw in this competition is that a half fit Kane can still score if got gave him a chance.
Watkins has one goal in international competitive football. Toney has none. Both have scored in friendlies though
The options are slim
The supply line to them ever slimmer

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Agree to a point but Kane did nothing for Spurs in big games when the team was built to his strengths. I don’t know if he freezes or can’t handle the pressure but he doesn’t embrace competition and those high pressure moments like Nico Williams and Yamal do for example. I hope Southgate steps down and we get a manager who plays attacking football and plays to Kane’s strengths but I’m not expecting much difference in terms of output from Kane in finals because he’s an empty shirt based on the finals he has played in so far.

Sorry but your wrong
Kane scored loads in big games
You mean cup finals… that’s fair
He hasn’t been fit in many of them and that’s an issue he needs to address

 

[Bedfordspurs]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1812814410022281372

When the team needed control

 

[spurspinter1]

You can claim Kane didn't have a good tournament, you can even stretch that to Kane is poor in finals but it doesn't change the fact

The reason England isn't good enough has nothing to do with Kane, it's what a lot of people have covered in the last couple of pages
- Poor team selection (i.e. right mix, players in the right positions, etc.)
- Lack of tactics that make sense
- Poor tempo, lack of intent to dominate the game

All of those are on the manager and not an individual player.

I also disagree the team can hold their head up high, they scrapped their way to a final via the easiest of draws and very few of them came out with a better reputation than walking in.

So with apparently nonsensical tactics we've made it to two finals, it's a well trodden path conversationally that I'm respectfully just not going to entertain. The desperate desire to make out that Southgate is some PE teacher who has stumbled in to a big job somehow speaks volumes of those who want to push that notion.

Poor team selection is always easy in hindsight but hang ups such as Trippier starting whilst he was actually doing well only proves the close minded ness of certain people who only see what makes them out to be right despite what's actually happening. If anything, starting Kane is the most pertinent example of poor team selection. You talk about poor team selection but overlook use of subs have got us through games or got us back in them, yesterday before the sub we created nothing, we scored and looked better not long after the sub.

Bedford gave a list of players whose reputation has improved which I could elaborate on and we made it to our first overseas final and consecutive final for the first time ever. The squad / set up can hold their heads up high collectively even if snipey fans want to denigrate that achievement.